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Thread: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    It's just funny how you two, AgentM and Ethereal, just seem to assume the base is there only to protect Japan.

    Have you never heard of the issues with China and Taiwan and about the rogue state of N. Korea??? Just to name the most visible tensions in that arena of competition.
    And it's funny how you think we cannot address those problems unless we have a Marine base in Okinawa. Tell me, what purpose do you think it's serving or could serve that could not be similarly effectuated in its absence?

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    We can no longer afford to maintain military bases all over the world. We need to start looking at the non-essential ones and decommissioning them. The Marine base in Okinawa is just a way-station for MEU's. . . .Your constant refrain of "anything could happen" is not a sound reason for spending billions of dollars to maintain a military presence on foreign soil, especially when our country faces financial insolvency.
    Then I don't suppose you know anything of Guam and what is happening there and how Japan ties into that. If you did I suspect you would have mentioned it.

    The regional force projection is no longer worth the cost,
    Your opinion. And one with so far no evidential basis.

    Moreover, the region itself is quite stable and there is little reason to believe that will change anytime in the near future.
    I have already shown how some of the greatest statesmen in history said much the same thing of Japan and Germany and were dead wrong. Dead wrong.

    So your opinion means next to nothing to say the least. When they were making those comments I quoted they were based on the wealth of information they were privy to as top national leaders and yet they still blew it. The only thing you have access to is what you scrounge up off the Internet. Your opinion carries no weight. I trust American and Japanese leaders over you. Especially since you haven't provided anything of evidence to back your stated view.

    Who should the Japanese be concerned about? Last time I checked, there wasn't an insane dictator amassing an army at their borders.
    Again, you are putting up a strawman argument by suggesting with your continual mention of the Japanese and their security that the base on Okinawa is there solely to protect Japan. It's not. And I never said it was.
    Last edited by ScummyD; 02-01-10 at 05:03 AM.
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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And it's funny how you think we cannot address those problems unless we have a Marine base in Okinawa. Tell me, what purpose do you think it's serving or could serve that could not be similarly effectuated in its absence?
    Another rank assumption on your part. I don't. Because we have one in Guam.

    Look, these people protesting the US base at Okinawa is really inconsequential. Let them squeak all they want. The plans to reorient the US presence in the Pacific has already been in the works for sometime. The Japanese government, as one member in this thread already commented on, knows damn well they want a US presence in the Pacific.

    When and if Japan meets its obligations to foot the bill for the new base construction, then the US will shift the main brunt of its presence.


    . . .

    However, the whole plan could collapse if Japan fails to build a replacement for a busy Marine Corps air base on its southern island of Okinawa, a festering issue that one senior US military official acknowledged is fraught with difficulties. The buildup plan, to be carried out by 2014, represents a major realignment of US forces in the Pacific:

    About 8,000 Marines are to be shifted 1,200 miles southeast, from Okinawa to Guam, making it the Corps' second largest permanent overseas staging and training area.

    US Plans for Military Buildup Leave Guam Wary | CommonDreams.org
    Last edited by ScummyD; 02-01-10 at 05:00 AM.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkWizard12 View Post
    Just thinking...but doesn't Japan pay for the base out of their own money?
    Yes.
    By treaty with Tokyo, more than 50,000 US troops are stationed throughout Japan, which pays billions of dollars each year to support them, more than any other country with a US base on its territory.
    From the cited source above.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    Then I don't suppose you know anything of Guam and what is happening there and how Japan ties into that. If you did I suspect you would have mentioned it.
    Stop being cute and just come out with it. What about Guam? We have a Naval station there, is that what you're talking about?

    Your opinion. And one with so far no evidential basis.
    And you have no evidential basis for claiming it needs to stay. I guess we'll just have to let the readers decide for themselves whether or not the nothing base that the Japanese people want gone is worth the cost.

    I have already shown how some of the greatest statesmen in history said much the same thing of Japan and Germany and were dead wrong. Dead wrong.
    Yes, nobody can predict the future. Thanks for pointing that out.

    Anyway, according to your logic, we should build more bases on Okinawa. How do you know we won't need them in the future? Wiser folks than yourself have been wrong, you know.

    So your opinion means next to nothing to say the least. When they were making those comments I quoted they were based on the wealth of information they were privy to as top national leaders and yet they still blew it. The only thing you have access to is what you scrounge up off the Internet. Your opinion carries no weight. I trust American and Japanese leaders over you. Especially since you haven't provided anything of evidence to back your stated view.
    My knowledge about Okinawa comes from having been stationed there as a Marine, but that's neither here nor there. Fact remains, your argument amounts to nothing more than chicken-little scenarios that have no basis in reality.

    Again, you are put up a strawman argument by suggesting with your continual mention of the Japanese and their security that the base on Okinawa is there solely to protect Japan. It's not. And I never said it was.
    Okay, then stop referencing WWII as if it were relevant.

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    Another rank assumption on your part. I don't. Because we have one in Guam.
    I know. I've been there. Great strip clubs, let me tell you...

    Look, these people protesting the US base at Okinawa is really inconsequential. Let them squeak all they want. The plans to reorient the US presence in the Pacific has already been in the works for sometime. The Japanese government, as one member in this thread already commented on, knows damn well they want a US presence in the Pacific.

    When and if Japan meets its obligations to foot the bill for the new base construction, then the US will shift the main brunt of its presence.


    . . .

    However, the whole plan could collapse if Japan fails to build a replacement for a busy Marine Corps air base on its southern island of Okinawa, a festering issue that one senior US military official acknowledged is fraught with difficulties. The buildup plan, to be carried out by 2014, represents a major realignment of US forces in the Pacific:

    About 8,000 Marines are to be shifted 1,200 miles southeast, from Okinawa to Guam, making it the Corps' second largest permanent overseas staging and training area.

    US Plans for Military Buildup Leave Guam Wary | CommonDreams.org
    My concern isn't really the protesters. I saw them all the time when I was in Oki, so it's nothing new to me. My concern is our financial instability and the precarious position we've put ourselves in by perpetuating the mentality that it's the our responsibility to stabilize foreign regions.

    I can't tell you for certain that a war wouldn't break out, but what I can tell you for certain is that the US will be just as safe as it was before we got rid of that worthless base.

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And you have no evidential basis for claiming it needs to stay.
    What I have argued is that by definition deterrence appears non-essential when it works, and that threats to one's national interest are hard to assess and can rise relatively quickly, and that American leaders know far more about all this than you so your opinion doesn't amount to much when you have not even tendered a reasonable argument, and that in fact the issues surrounding Taiwan and N. Korea require attention, that preserving the peace is an active duty that is not free of cost, which is better provided the closer we are to the region for numerous reasons so far left unstated.

    All you have said is that the base costs too much. That's it.

    And it appears that you were unaware that the Japanese pay for a portion of the cost.

    Yes, nobody can predict the future. Thanks for pointing that out.
    The point was to illustrate that your opinion isn't much. I realize none of us are privy to the real meat of the intelligence assessment, but you haven't even provided a reasonable argument. We have real interests at stake, as I have cited. Reducing our presence in the region is not a wise option. The buildup on Guam in recent years reflects this truth.

    Anyway, according to your logic, we should build more bases on Okinawa.
    No, that most definitely does not follow necessarily from my comments.

    How do you know we won't need them in the future? Wiser folks than yourself have been wrong, you know.
    There is quite a significant difference between thousands of US marines and their requisite materiel there now and none at all which would be the case under your views.

    My knowledge about Okinawa comes from having been stationed there as a Marine, but that's neither here nor there. Fact remains, your argument amounts to nothing more than chicken-little scenarios that have no basis in reality.
    An empty claim. My position is very much based in reality and securely fastened to a foundation of reason and informed by history.

    All you have presented so far is an opinion that we are spending too much.

    Okay, then stop referencing WWII as if it were relevant.
    You explain a lot about your views with this comment.
    Last edited by ScummyD; 02-01-10 at 05:45 AM.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    My concern isn't really the protesters. I saw them all the time when I was in Oki, so it's nothing new to me. My concern is our financial instability and the precarious position we've put ourselves in by perpetuating the mentality that it's the our responsibility to stabilize foreign regions.
    And my point is that this is the exact same excuse other people, top leaders in fact, have given in the past for neglecting their responsibilities to preserve the peace. That it cost too much.

    It is not precarious to maintain an active base deep in the Pacific.

    Whether you like it or not by virtue of our power we have a responsibility to work to preserve the peace. Shirking that duty will lead to situations which will be far more costly in both capital and lives to correct, as history well proves.

    And "the mentality that it's our responsibility to stabilize foreign regions" is firmly based on the fact that we are no longer living in a world where we can afford to allow conflagrations to erupt and expect to avoid the repercussions. We are not insulated from these issues as we once were. Active management is less costly than later clean up missions once the **** has already hit the fan and splattered across the globe.

    I can't tell you for certain that a war wouldn't break out, but what I can tell you for certain is that the US will be just as safe as it was before we got rid of that worthless base.
    Okay. I'm not sure I agree and I haven't seen you say anything that would suggest it, but I understand what you are saying.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    Quote Originally Posted by zimmer View Post
    Something for Obama to cave on. To show we are no longer evil.

    .
    Get Kim Dung Ill on the phone, we need another missile launched. We'll have those Japanese waving American flags in no time.
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    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Thousands protest in Tokyo against U.S. military presence in Japan

    We should close the base. Japan does not need our military assistance. It is a waste of time and resources for America. Nobody is going to invade Japan. The entire WORLD, not just the US, would come to their defense.
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

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