Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News

Ten Americans were detained by Haitian police on Saturday as they tried to bus 33 children across the border into the Dominican Republic, allegedly without proper documents.
The Baptist church members from Idaho called it a "Haitian Orphan Rescue Mission," meant to save abandoned children from the chaos following Haiti's earthquake. Their plan was to scoop up 100 kids and take them by bus to a rented hotel at a beach resort in the Dominican Republic, where they planned to establish an orphanage.
Whether they realized it or not, these Americans — the first known to be taken into custody since the Jan. 12 earthquake — put themselves in the middle of a firestorm in Haiti, where government leaders have suspended adoptions amid fears that parentless or lost children are more vulnerable than ever to child trafficking.

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While I do not think these people intended any harm, they should have contacted the correct authorities before even trying something this crazy. What they did makes them look guilty. You do not take kids and try to sneak them out of a country. Hopefully it all turns well for these people. I think they had good intentions just went the wrong way about it.

Hatuey said:

Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News

While I do not think these people intended any harm, they should have contacted the correct authorities before even trying something this crazy. What they did makes them look guilty. You do not take kids and try to sneak them out of a country. Hopefully it all turns well for these people. I think they had good intentions just went the wrong way about it.

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If they intended no harm, then why did they not at least get some sort of official documentation? Are they stupid or something?

They did not have any documentation that they were orphans in the first place. That raises all sorts of alarms. How do they know they are orphans? Where did they get the kids? They also had no contacted the Haitian or US authorities at any level asking permission to do what they did. That in any book is kidnapping.

Now the only kind of people that do this are either brain-dead or child sex traffickers... and regardless both should be punished for what they did.

It reminds me of the 2007 controversy about L'Arche de Zoé in Darfur.

On Tuesday, October 30, 2007, six members of the charity organization Zoé's Ark were formally charged by the government of Chad for child abduction. Three journalists, seven Spanish flight crew members, and four Chadian and Sudanese nationals, including two Chadian officials, were also charged for complicity. Despite the group's claim that the children were orphans from Darfur who were being taken to be fostered in France, most of the children have been found to be Chadian, and to have at least one living parent or guardian.

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in the best of times, my understanding is the conducting of routine business in haiti officialdom is indirect and rife with corruption
the accounts i have seen indicated that the pastors at the destroyed haitian orphanage and that of the dominican receiving orphanage had issued letters - in the possession of those moving the kids, the Americans from a baptist church, who are now incarcerated - which letters acknowlede the transfer of the chidren to be one consistent with the needs of the children and the agreement of both facilities
i am suspicious that this is yet another instance of haitian officials holding up what needs to be done because they can ... and because the officials might potentially realize a bribe to discontinue their hold
seems like a lot of displaced government resources when there are so many who actually need help in their country at this time

PeteEU said:

If they intended no harm, then why did they not at least get some sort of official documentation? Are they stupid or something?

They did not have any documentation that they were orphans in the first place. That raises all sorts of alarms. How do they know they are orphans? Where did they get the kids? They also had no contacted the Haitian or US authorities at any level asking permission to do what they did. That in any book is kidnapping.

Now the only kind of people that do this are either brain-dead or child sex traffickers... and regardless both should be punished for what they did.

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I knew that you were going to reply to this so I've been thinking of how I'd reply to your posts for a while. I'll dissect your post and expose why it is nothing more than a reactionary and clearly anti-Christian view.

The Haitian government is in complete shambles. That by itself would make any attempt to rescue these children an arduous process that would take years. First of all, there is no infrastructure in Haiti right now to deal with child adoptions. Secondly, the Latin American governments(this would include Brazil) are on a normal day, INCREDIBLY corrupt when dealing with child adoptions, the bureaucracy involved is quite extensive and people are often hustled for money. I know this because my wife and I have discussed adopting a child from Brazil. We have held off simply because we do not have the time to deal with international child adoption services at the moment.

These children were handed over by a renowned pastor in Haiti. The church in Haiti is probably one of the few institutions which is not completely engulfed in corruption. Regardless of my disagreements with Christianity, it is undoubtable that they have in cases of complete chaos tried to help the most affected. Whether they have done all they could is another debate. But they have tried. The situation in Haiti and in 2006's tsunami would be examples of that. Baptist churches are a bit more radical in their ways of helping but they non the less have good intentions when they are seen helping children.

Finally, these people aren't brain dead or child sex traffickers. They are people who saw themselves as being helpless, there is no real government to help these kids. And the government that does exist is so crippled and riddled in corruption that going through their channels is an exercise in futility.

It is a matter of people having good intentions but going the wrong way about it. Your attack is unfounded and pretty biased.

Hatuey said:

I knew that you were going to reply to this so I've been thinking of how I'd reply to your posts for a while. I'll dissect your post and expose why it is nothing more than a reactionary and clearly anti-Christian view.

The Haitian government is in complete shambles. That by itself would make any attempt to rescue these children an arduous process that would take years. First of all, there is no infrastructure in Haiti right now to deal with child adoptions. Secondly, the Latin American governments(this would include Brazil) are on a normal day, INCREDIBLY corrupt when dealing with child adoptions, the bureaucracy involved is quite extensive and people are often hustled for money. I know this because my wife and I have discussed adopting a child from Brazil. We have held off simply because we do not have the time to deal with international child adoption services at the moment.

These children were handed over by a renowned pastor in Haiti. The church in Haiti is probably one of the few institutions which is not completely engulfed in corruption. Regardless of my disagreements with Christianity, it is undoubtable that they have in cases of complete chaos tried to help the most affected. Whether they have done all they could is another debate. But they have tried. The situation in Haiti and in 2006's tsunami would be examples of that. Baptist churches are a bit more radical in their ways of helping but they non the less have good intentions when they are seen helping children.

Finally, these people aren't brain dead or child sex traffickers. They are people who saw themselves as being helpless, there is no real government to help these kids. And the government that does exist is so crippled and riddled in corruption that going through their channels is an exercise in futility.

It is a matter of people having good intentions but going the wrong way about it. Your attack is unfounded and pretty biased.

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Well that's too bad but it does not give them the right to break the law......

PeteEU said:

If they intended no harm, then why did they not at least get some sort of official documentation? Are they stupid or something?

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I have no idea what sort of "official documentation" is needed in Haiti, but in a bureaucratic, corrupt government in the midst of a humanitarian crisis...it probably isn't easy to get it.

PeteEU said:

They did not have any documentation that they were orphans in the first place. That raises all sorts of alarms. How do they know they are orphans? Where did they get the kids? They also had no contacted the Haitian or US authorities at any level asking permission to do what they did. That in any book is kidnapping.

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Yes, but they were just trying to help.

PeteEU said:

Now the only kind of people that do this are either brain-dead or child sex traffickers.

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These people were missionaries from some church with documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. Do you REALLY believe they were child sex traffickers? And if not, then what's the point of punishing them just because they made a mistake?

PeteEU said:

and regardless both should be punished for what they did.

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Your compassion is marvelous. Punishing them will surely make people more hesitant to help in this or future humanitarian tragedies.

PeteEU said:

If they intended no harm, then why did they not at least get some sort of official documentation? Are they stupid or something?

They did not have any documentation that they were orphans in the first place. That raises all sorts of alarms. How do they know they are orphans? Where did they get the kids? They also had no contacted the Haitian or US authorities at any level asking permission to do what they did. That in any book is kidnapping.

Now the only kind of people that do this are either brain-dead or child sex traffickers... and regardless both should be punished for what they did.

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Why don't you list those alarms for us? Do you have children btw?

American said:

Why don't you list those alarms for us? Do you have children btw?

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How is that relavent?........

If they broke the law, they should be punished....

If I robbed a 7-11 because my kids were hungry, would you forgive me?.....:roll:

Partisan said:

How is that relavent?........

If they broke the law, they should be punished....

If I robbed a 7-11 because my kids were hungry, would you forgive me?.....:roll:

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It is harder to see what these people did as criminal when you have kids. A lot harder. People without kids simply do not understand the difference. It is like losing a parent or friend to cancer or AIDS. You develop compassion for people who have it regardless what political lean you are in. If anything happened to my wife and I, I would only hope somebody would be this brazen rescuing my own kid. Doesn't matter if they are Christian, Atheist or Scientologist. It is a matter of compassion for other humans.

Hatuey said:

It is harder to see what these people did as criminal when you have kids. A lot harder. People without kids simply do not understand the difference. It is like losing a parent or friend to cancer or AIDS. You develop compassion for people who have it regardless what political lean you are in.

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I disagree.....
I would not want my child to be spirited out of the country without the government knowing about it.....
I do understand the 'Solomons rule' insight though.......

Partisan said:

I disagree.....
I would not want my child to be spirited out of the country without the government knowing about it.....
I do understand the 'Solomons rule' insight though.......

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so, you would prefer your dependent child remain in haiti, without an orphanage to live in, rather than be transferred to one in the dominican, where the child could be looked after

ok

Hatuey said:

I knew that you were going to reply to this so I've been thinking of how I'd reply to your posts for a while. I'll dissect your post and expose why it is nothing more than a reactionary and clearly anti-Christian view.

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Okay..

The Haitian government is in complete shambles.

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Yea a massive earthquake can do that to a country.

That by itself would make any attempt to rescue these children an arduous process that would take years.

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And? and rescue from what? Living in a hell hole of a country? That is somehow justification for kidnapping and child trafficking? Does that mean if a child living in a US slum is taken without the single mother who is on drugs consent and without the consent of the authorities, then it is okay because you are "rescuing" the child from a hell hole?

First of all, there is no infrastructure in Haiti right now to deal with child adoptions.

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So what? There is no infrastructure to do anything there. Does still not excuse breaking the law. There is no infrastructure to keep law and order, no police stations, no courthouses (well few of each but still) and that should some how mean it was legal to go murder people?

Secondly, the Latin American governments(this would include Brazil) are on a normal day, INCREDIBLY corrupt when dealing with child adoptions, the bureaucracy involved is quite extensive and people are often hustled for money.

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And again.. so what? Again how does it justify breaking the law? Just because the politicians in Chicago are known for being corrupt does not mean it is legal to bypass the law in Chicago..

I know this because my wife and I have discussed adopting a child from Brazil. We have held off simply because we do not have the time to deal with international child adoption services at the moment.

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Are there not plenty of needy American children? I do hope you do adopt someone one day btw, not meant to be an attempt to be offensive what so ever.. just a question.

These children were handed over by a renowned pastor in Haiti.

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And so what? Just because it was a pastor handing over these children does that exclude that he is part of a child sex ring? There are no paedophile priests? The Church has not abused children in the past? Being religious does not give you a free pass on following the law.

The church in Haiti is probably one of the few institutions which is not completely engulfed in corruption.

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Sure....... Just because it is a religious organisation means it cant be even remotely corrupt.. :shock:

Regardless of my disagreements with Christianity, it is undoubtable that they have in cases of complete chaos tried to help the most affected.

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Does not change the fact that they broke the law. Religion is not an excuse.

Whether they have done all they could is another debate. But they have tried. The situation in Haiti and in 2006's tsunami would be examples of that. Baptist churches are a bit more radical in their ways of helping but they non the less have good intentions when they are seen helping children.

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Does not excuse them from breaking the law.

Finally, these people aren't brain dead or child sex traffickers.

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How do you know that? Either they are braindead because they did not follow the rules, or they deliberately did not want to follow the rules because they were trafficking in children.. either way, the broke the law.

They are people who saw themselves as being helpless, there is no real government to help these kids. And the government that does exist is so crippled and riddled in corruption that going through their channels is an exercise in futility.

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So you are basically justifying child trafficking based on corruption in a country.. nice to know

It is a matter of people having good intentions but going the wrong way about it. Your attack is unfounded and pretty biased.

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Hardly.

First of I did not even know they were from a church.. has not been reported over here and it is irrelevant since being member of a church does not give you a free pass to break the law as you see fit.

Secondly they broke the freaking law.. deal with it and suffer the consequences. I dont care if they had "good" intentions.. they can claim all they want, the facts are clear. They did not seek or get any official approval from removing these children from Haiti. They are human traffickers pure and simple and should be treated as such.

Hatuey said:

It is harder to see what these people did as criminal when you have kids. A lot harder. People without kids simply do not understand the difference. It is like losing a parent or friend to cancer or AIDS. You develop compassion for people who have it regardless what political lean you are in. If anything happened to my wife and I, I would only hope somebody would be this brazen rescuing my own kid. Doesn't matter if they are Christian, Atheist or Scientologist. It is a matter of compassion for other humans.

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But then, who cares what you think? Right?

Kandahar said:

I have no idea what sort of "official documentation" is needed in Haiti, but in a bureaucratic, corrupt government in the midst of a humanitarian crisis...it probably isn't easy to get it.

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No it aint, but that does still not justify breaking the law. How would you have liked if children in New Orleans were whisked off to other countries after Katrina because of the lack of response and help by the local government? You would be screaming kidnapping and worse I bet.

Yes, but they were just trying to help.

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So they claim. Paedophiles often claim to be only "helping" children too, does not make it true does it now..

These people were missionaries from some church with documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. Do you REALLY believe they were child sex traffickers? And if not, then what's the point of punishing them just because they made a mistake?

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I had not heard they were missionaries but that does not matter. And so what if they had documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. They can still not break the bloody law. Are you seriously saying that I went to Haiti now with official documentation that I was on a humanitarian mission, that I could just disregard the law in Haiti.. hey lets kill this guy, he looked odd at me.. ohh she is hot, lets rape her.. hey lets rob that guy.. come on.. you cant be serious.

Your compassion is marvelous. Punishing them will surely make people more hesitant to help in this or future humanitarian tragedies.

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So now we have to be compassionate with people who are breaking the law just because they either are Christians or/and are supposed trying to do something good?

PeteEU said:

Okay..
Yea a massive earthquake can do that to a country.

And? and rescue from what? Living in a hell hole of a country? That is somehow justification for kidnapping and child trafficking? Does that mean if a child living in a US slum is taken without the single mother who is on drugs consent and without the consent of the authorities, then it is okay because you are "rescuing" the child from a hell hole?

So what? There is no infrastructure to do anything there. Does still not excuse breaking the law. There is no infrastructure to keep law and order, no police stations, no courthouses (well few of each but still) and that should some how mean it was legal to go murder people?

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Now you are just lying or simply misinformed. First of all these kids were not kidnapped. They went under the guardianship of one of Haiti's ministers. They were given over to this group because the church simply could not take care of them

And again.. so what? Again how does it justify breaking the law? Just because the politicians in Chicago are known for being corrupt does not mean it is legal to bypass the law in Chicago..

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Only Chicago politicians do not break the law for the interests of the populace or any even remotely humanitarian reasons. They break it in the name of self interest. The difference is obvious.

Are there not plenty of needy American children? I do hope you do adopt someone one day btw, not meant to be an attempt to be offensive what so ever.. just a question.

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Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.

And so what? Just because it was a pastor handing over these children does that exclude that he is part of a child sex ring? There are no paedophile priests? The Church has not abused children in the past? Being religious does not give you a free pass on following the law.

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HE IS NOT PART OF A CHILD SEX RING. This was a humanitarian mission where a pastor asked a group to take care of children. Why do you keep making things up?

Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News

Silsby said they only had the best of intentions and paid no money for the children. She said her group obtained them through a well-known Haitian pastor named Jean Sanbil of the Sharing Jesus Ministries.
Silsby, 40, of Boise, Idaho, was asked if she didn't consider it naive to cross the border without adoption papers at a time when Haitians are so concerned about child trafficking. "By no means are we any part of that. That's exactly what we are trying to combat," she said.

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Sure....... Just because it is a religious organisation means it cant be even remotely corrupt.. :shock:

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Can you prove they are corrupt? So far with the information given, you can not assert this and are just going on "what if".

Does not change the fact that they broke the law. Religion is not an excuse.

Does not excuse them from breaking the law.

How do you know that? Either they are braindead because they did not follow the rules, or they deliberately did not want to follow the rules because they were trafficking in children.. either way, the broke the law.

So you are basically justifying child trafficking based on corruption in a country.. nice to know

Hardly.

First of I did not even know they were from a church.. has not been reported over here and it is irrelevant since being member of a church does not give you a free pass to break the law as you see fit.

Secondly they broke the freaking law.. deal with it and suffer the consequences. I dont care if they had "good" intentions.. they can claim all they want, the facts are clear. They did not seek or get any official approval from removing these children from Haiti. They are human traffickers pure and simple and should be treated as such.

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You keep repeating the same things over and over again and provide no evidence. First of all these people are not running a sex ring, child trafficking rings or whatever other ring you think they are running. They were asked by a pastor in Haiti to help these kids, secondly your ridiculous outrage at this is nothing more than see through anti-religious rhetoric. You have yet to demonstrate that these people are corrupt. The fact that you are going on false comparisons and "what if" interpretations of the events is quite telling.

PeteEU said:

No it aint, but that does still not justify breaking the law. How would you have liked if children in New Orleans were whisked off to other countries after Katrina because of the lack of response and help by the local government? You would be screaming kidnapping and worse I bet.

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If they were "kidnapped" because their parents were missing, by church missionaries trying to help them? No, of course I wouldn't be screaming kidnapping. That's just silly.

PeteEU said:

I had not heard they were missionaries but that does not matter. And so what if they had documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. They can still not break the bloody law. Are you seriously saying that I went to Haiti now with official documentation that I was on a humanitarian mission, that I could just disregard the law in Haiti.. hey lets kill this guy, he looked odd at me.. ohh she is hot, lets rape her.. hey lets rob that guy.. come on.. you cant be serious.

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Dude, they were trying to help, not killing/raping anyone. :roll:

PeteEU said:

So now we have to be compassionate with people who are breaking the law just because they either are Christians or/and are supposed trying to do something good?

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Aha! Now it becomes clear what this is really about, and why you're so adamant that the letter of the law be upheld. Perhaps if you take a step back from your bigotry and look at the situation objectively, you'll see that I'm right. I'm not a Christian (far from it), but your ignorant prejudice toward them is truly repulsive. :2wave:

justabubba said:

so, you would prefer your dependent child remain in haiti, without an orphanage to live in, rather than be transferred to one in the dominican, where the child could be looked after

ok

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Think before you post......
Apparently you either didn't read my whole post or you lack reading comprehension....:roll:
See the reference to 'Solomons rule'.....

I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.

Justice Seeker said:

I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.

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They weren't kidnapped. Read the article. The kids were handed over by their caretaker.

Justice Seeker said:

I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.

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Does the government have to prosecute every single person who breaks any law, regardless of circumstances?

And even if you have no compassion for them, let's look at it from a public relations standpoint. If I was the President of Haiti, I'd probably be thinking "Missionaries from around the world - and the US government - have provided us with a huge amount of assistance in our darkest hour. Maybe it wouldn't be a great PR move to prosecute American missionaries for trying to help."

Hatuey said:

Now you are just lying or simply misinformed. First of all these kids were not kidnapped. They went under the guardianship of one of Haiti's ministers. They were given over to this group because the church simply could not take care of them

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Ministers? political or religious? And again.. does still not justify that they broke the law..

Only Chicago politicians do not break the law for the interests of the populace or any even remotely humanitarian reasons. They break it in the name of self interest. The difference is obvious.

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No it is not.. it is exactly the same. You are just making up excuses to defend these people. Breaking the law due to the country/city/place is corrupt, still means you broke the law.

Just because Boss Hog in the Dukes of Hazzard was corrupt does not mean that the Duke brothers did not break the speed limit when roaring down a road in the county at 100 miles an hour.

Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.

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LOL are you sure about that.. out of 300 million Americans, there is no poverty, no crime and no kids living in bad circumstances? There is no child neglect at all in the US?! Could have fooled me.. got any evidence of this eldorado for children in the US?

HE IS NOT PART OF A CHILD SEX RING. This was a humanitarian mission where a pastor asked a group to take care of children. Why do you keep making things up?

Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News

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I am not "making things up". I am theorising why they avoided going the official way to help these children. Either they are stupid or they are child traffickers. Still does not change the fact they broke the law.

Can you prove they are corrupt? So far with the information given, you can not assert this and are just going on "what if".

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Can you prove they are not? And yes there is plenty of evidence of corruption within the Church. How about exporting paedophile priests to other parishes and hiding them for decades? Is that not corruption?

I aint saying this guy was corrupt, neither am I saying he is not. I am stating that corruption can exist in the church so dismissing it off hand just because it is the Church is just silly.

That is like saying the FBI is beyond reproach when it comes to fighting crime and that whatever they do is legal.

You keep repeating the same things over and over again and provide no evidence. First of all these people are not running a sex ring, child trafficking rings or whatever other ring you think they are running. They were asked by a pastor in Haiti to help these kids, secondly your ridiculous outrage at this is nothing more than see through anti-religious rhetoric. You have yet to demonstrate that these people are corrupt. The fact that you are going on false comparisons and "what if" interpretations of the events is quite telling.

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And you keep repeating the same defence line over and over again.

Fact. They did not seek official documentation of any sort before attempting to take the children out of the country. Why?

Fact. The children were in the supposed care of this priest. The whereabouts of the parents unknown. This does not mean they are orphans, just that their parents are missing or the children got cut off from their parents. So it is legal in the US to take children without making sure that they are orphans?

Fact. Either these people are stupid which is a valid excuse or they are part of some sort of child trafficking ring. I hope and suspect the first one, but the latter can not be dismissed just because they claim to be from a church somewhere.

This has nothing to do with them being Americans, nothing to do with them being from some church. They broke the law period.

Kandahar said:

If they were "kidnapped" because their parents were missing, by church missionaries trying to help them? No, of course I wouldn't be screaming kidnapping. That's just silly.

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LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.

Dude, they were trying to help, not killing/raping anyone. :roll:

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So they claim. They can claim whatever they want now that they got caught, but we have no clue on what their real motives were. A criminal often claims he is innocent of the crime he is accused off, does that mean we have to believe him?

Aha! Now it becomes clear what this is really about, and why you're so adamant that the letter of the law be upheld. Perhaps if you take a step back from your bigotry and look at the situation objectively, you'll see that I'm right. I'm not a Christian (far from it), but your ignorant prejudice toward them is truly repulsive. :2wave:

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Listen, without the law and rules we have anarchy. Pure and simple. I fully understand that in the situation it is near impossible to go by the book, but that does not mean you throw out the book just because you feel like it.

One of the main concerns about children from the first few days after the quake was the possible exploitation of the situation by child sex traffickers. Aid organisation after aid organisation brought it up in the media. There was clear focus on it.

And remember the first few days there was several adoptions being sped through by both the US but also by whatever was left of the Haitian government? They followed the rules.. well bent the rules but they did go through official channels. They got the Haitian president and so on to sigh off on the adoptions, even those that had not made it far enough through the US and Haitian systems to make it possible. Hell they even had some blow heart politician from the US take in a plane, get priority treatment on landing in Haiti delaying aid just to get out the kids.. They got it done in a few days and the kids were off to the US to a new life.

And here we have supposed well meaning missionaries, wanting to do the same, but they totally avoid all forms of official paperwork and contacts to not only the Haitian government, but also the US and Dominican? You know how bad that looks?

PeteEU said:

Ministers? political or religious? And again.. does still not justify that they broke the law..

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Religious.

It is exactly the same.

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No. These people broke the law for the interest of children. Chicago politicians break them in their own interest. They are not exactly the same.

LOL are you sure about that.. out of 300 million Americans, there is no poverty, no crime and no kids living in bad circumstances? There is no child neglect at all in the US?! Could have fooled me.. got any evidence of this eldorado for children in the US?

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Read what I said instead of making things up as you go :

Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.

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Considering that the standard of American life is much higher than that of Haiti and Brazil, then it is impossible for even a single child in the U.S. to live on a dollar a day. The U.S. has food programs that ensure kids who are disadvantaged can eat. That alone establishes that more money is spent on a single U.S. kid in one day than is spent on 7 in Haiti.

Secondly, there are no favelas in the U.S. so I have no clue how you equate that to there being dangerous neighbourhoods in America. Do you even know what a favela is?

I am not "making things up". I am theorising why they avoided going the official way to help these children. Either they are stupid or they are child traffickers. Still does not change the fact they broke the law.

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Theorizing what? You are making things up. You have no evidence that these people are child trafficking, sex trafficking or any other form of trafficking. You are simply going on "what if" with no evidence.

Can you prove they are not? And yes there is plenty of evidence of corruption within the Church. How about exporting paedophile priests to other parishes and hiding them for decades? Is that not corruption?

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The onus is on you to prove that these people are corrupt. It was you that stated a what if they were argument not I. You are still going on "what if".

I aint saying this guy was corrupt, neither am I saying he is not. I am stating that corruption can exist in the church so dismissing it off hand just because it is the Church is just silly.

That is like saying the FBI is beyond reproach when it comes to fighting crime and that whatever they do is legal.

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No. What is being stated is that these people obviously meant no harm to the kids. You are going on "what if" and bringing up red herrings to substantiate your position. However it still lacks proper evidence, insight and interpretations.

And you keep repeating the same defence line over and over again.

Fact. They did not seek official documentation of any sort before attempting to take the children out of the country. Why?

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Because there is no infrastructure in the country to get official documentation of any sort.

Fact. The children were in the supposed care of this priest. The whereabouts of the parents unknown. This does not mean they are orphans, just that their parents are missing or the children got cut off from their parents. So it is legal in the US to take children without making sure that they are orphans?

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You are still making things up. Did you even make an effort to read the article?

The Baptist church members from Idaho called it a "Haitian Orphan Rescue Mission," meant to save abandoned children from the chaos following Haiti's earthquake. Their plan was to scoop up 100 kids and take them by bus to a rented hotel at a beach resort in the Dominican Republic, where they planned to establish an orphanage.

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The kids were abandoned by their parents. This is verified by the person who took them in. Do you have any evidence to prove the contrary?

Fact. Either these people are stupid which is a valid excuse or they are part of some sort of child trafficking ring. I hope and suspect the first one, but the latter can not be dismissed just because they claim to be from a church somewhere.

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In an anti-religious world it is very easy to come up with black and white reasons for why these people did it. In the real world however, it is not.

This has nothing to do with them being Americans, nothing to do with them being from some church. They broke the law period.

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Of course it does. Your outrage is quite see through. You've compared them to corrupt politicians and show no evidence of corruption, you claim they are brain dead for doing such a thing in a country where there is no infrastructure, political or otherwise to speed up the adoption process and you bring up American kids living in what Haitian kids could only wish for. Your outrage fools nobody.

PeteEU said:

LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.

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WTF are you talking about? The United States is huge and has plenty of facilities; there would be plenty of places other than New Orleans to take them. The same is not true of Haiti...it's a small country that doesn't have good facilities ANYWHERE. Comparing bringing Haitian kids to the Dominican Republic, with whisking American kids off to Afghanistan, is ridiculous. And you know it.

PeteEU said:

So they claim. They can claim whatever they want now that they got caught, but we have no clue on what their real motives were. A criminal often claims he is innocent of the crime he is accused off, does that mean we have to believe him?

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There is documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission for their church. I don't believe for one second that YOU actually think that they were sex traffickers. You showed your true colors in your previous post: You just want to stick it to them because they're Christians. Your supposed concern for the law or for Haitian children is completely phony.

PeteEU said:

Listen, without the law and rules we have anarchy. Pure and simple. I fully understand that in the situation it is near impossible to go by the book, but that does not mean you throw out the book just because you feel like it.

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Actually, yeah, it does.

PeteEU said:

One of the main concerns about children from the first few days after the quake was the possible exploitation of the situation by child sex traffickers. Aid organisation after aid organisation brought it up in the media. There was clear focus on it.

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Then they can focus on real traffickers, instead of missionaries trying to help.

PeteEU said:

And here we have supposed well meaning missionaries, wanting to do the same, but they totally avoid all forms of official paperwork and contacts to not only the Haitian government, but also the US and Dominican? You know how bad that looks?

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To anyone who doesn't have a nasty anti-Christian vendetta, it just looks like some well-meaning people doing something foolish due to extreme circumstances.