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Thread: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice Seeker View Post
    I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.
    Does the government have to prosecute every single person who breaks any law, regardless of circumstances?

    And even if you have no compassion for them, let's look at it from a public relations standpoint. If I was the President of Haiti, I'd probably be thinking "Missionaries from around the world - and the US government - have provided us with a huge amount of assistance in our darkest hour. Maybe it wouldn't be a great PR move to prosecute American missionaries for trying to help."
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-10 at 01:52 PM.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Now you are just lying or simply misinformed. First of all these kids were not kidnapped. They went under the guardianship of one of Haiti's ministers. They were given over to this group because the church simply could not take care of them
    Ministers? political or religious? And again.. does still not justify that they broke the law..

    Only Chicago politicians do not break the law for the interests of the populace or any even remotely humanitarian reasons. They break it in the name of self interest. The difference is obvious.
    No it is not.. it is exactly the same. You are just making up excuses to defend these people. Breaking the law due to the country/city/place is corrupt, still means you broke the law.

    Just because Boss Hog in the Dukes of Hazzard was corrupt does not mean that the Duke brothers did not break the speed limit when roaring down a road in the county at 100 miles an hour.

    Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.
    LOL are you sure about that.. out of 300 million Americans, there is no poverty, no crime and no kids living in bad circumstances? There is no child neglect at all in the US?! Could have fooled me.. got any evidence of this eldorado for children in the US?

    HE IS NOT PART OF A CHILD SEX RING. This was a humanitarian mission where a pastor asked a group to take care of children. Why do you keep making things up?

    Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News
    I am not "making things up". I am theorising why they avoided going the official way to help these children. Either they are stupid or they are child traffickers. Still does not change the fact they broke the law.

    Can you prove they are corrupt? So far with the information given, you can not assert this and are just going on "what if".
    Can you prove they are not? And yes there is plenty of evidence of corruption within the Church. How about exporting paedophile priests to other parishes and hiding them for decades? Is that not corruption?

    I aint saying this guy was corrupt, neither am I saying he is not. I am stating that corruption can exist in the church so dismissing it off hand just because it is the Church is just silly.

    That is like saying the FBI is beyond reproach when it comes to fighting crime and that whatever they do is legal.

    You keep repeating the same things over and over again and provide no evidence. First of all these people are not running a sex ring, child trafficking rings or whatever other ring you think they are running. They were asked by a pastor in Haiti to help these kids, secondly your ridiculous outrage at this is nothing more than see through anti-religious rhetoric. You have yet to demonstrate that these people are corrupt. The fact that you are going on false comparisons and "what if" interpretations of the events is quite telling.
    And you keep repeating the same defence line over and over again.

    Fact. They did not seek official documentation of any sort before attempting to take the children out of the country. Why?

    Fact. The children were in the supposed care of this priest. The whereabouts of the parents unknown. This does not mean they are orphans, just that their parents are missing or the children got cut off from their parents. So it is legal in the US to take children without making sure that they are orphans?

    Fact. Either these people are stupid which is a valid excuse or they are part of some sort of child trafficking ring. I hope and suspect the first one, but the latter can not be dismissed just because they claim to be from a church somewhere.

    This has nothing to do with them being Americans, nothing to do with them being from some church. They broke the law period.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    If they were "kidnapped" because their parents were missing, by church missionaries trying to help them? No, of course I wouldn't be screaming kidnapping. That's just silly.
    LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.

    Dude, they were trying to help, not killing/raping anyone.
    So they claim. They can claim whatever they want now that they got caught, but we have no clue on what their real motives were. A criminal often claims he is innocent of the crime he is accused off, does that mean we have to believe him?

    Aha! Now it becomes clear what this is really about, and why you're so adamant that the letter of the law be upheld. Perhaps if you take a step back from your bigotry and look at the situation objectively, you'll see that I'm right. I'm not a Christian (far from it), but your ignorant prejudice toward them is truly repulsive.
    Listen, without the law and rules we have anarchy. Pure and simple. I fully understand that in the situation it is near impossible to go by the book, but that does not mean you throw out the book just because you feel like it.

    One of the main concerns about children from the first few days after the quake was the possible exploitation of the situation by child sex traffickers. Aid organisation after aid organisation brought it up in the media. There was clear focus on it.

    And remember the first few days there was several adoptions being sped through by both the US but also by whatever was left of the Haitian government? They followed the rules.. well bent the rules but they did go through official channels. They got the Haitian president and so on to sigh off on the adoptions, even those that had not made it far enough through the US and Haitian systems to make it possible. Hell they even had some blow heart politician from the US take in a plane, get priority treatment on landing in Haiti delaying aid just to get out the kids.. They got it done in a few days and the kids were off to the US to a new life.

    And here we have supposed well meaning missionaries, wanting to do the same, but they totally avoid all forms of official paperwork and contacts to not only the Haitian government, but also the US and Dominican? You know how bad that looks?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Ministers? political or religious? And again.. does still not justify that they broke the law..
    Religious.

    It is exactly the same.
    No. These people broke the law for the interest of children. Chicago politicians break them in their own interest. They are not exactly the same.

    LOL are you sure about that.. out of 300 million Americans, there is no poverty, no crime and no kids living in bad circumstances? There is no child neglect at all in the US?! Could have fooled me.. got any evidence of this eldorado for children in the US?
    Read what I said instead of making things up as you go :

    Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.
    Considering that the standard of American life is much higher than that of Haiti and Brazil, then it is impossible for even a single child in the U.S. to live on a dollar a day. The U.S. has food programs that ensure kids who are disadvantaged can eat. That alone establishes that more money is spent on a single U.S. kid in one day than is spent on 7 in Haiti.

    Secondly, there are no favelas in the U.S. so I have no clue how you equate that to there being dangerous neighbourhoods in America. Do you even know what a favela is?

    I am not "making things up". I am theorising why they avoided going the official way to help these children. Either they are stupid or they are child traffickers. Still does not change the fact they broke the law.
    Theorizing what? You are making things up. You have no evidence that these people are child trafficking, sex trafficking or any other form of trafficking. You are simply going on "what if" with no evidence.

    Can you prove they are not? And yes there is plenty of evidence of corruption within the Church. How about exporting paedophile priests to other parishes and hiding them for decades? Is that not corruption?
    The onus is on you to prove that these people are corrupt. It was you that stated a what if they were argument not I. You are still going on "what if".

    I aint saying this guy was corrupt, neither am I saying he is not. I am stating that corruption can exist in the church so dismissing it off hand just because it is the Church is just silly.

    That is like saying the FBI is beyond reproach when it comes to fighting crime and that whatever they do is legal.
    No. What is being stated is that these people obviously meant no harm to the kids. You are going on "what if" and bringing up red herrings to substantiate your position. However it still lacks proper evidence, insight and interpretations.

    And you keep repeating the same defence line over and over again.

    Fact. They did not seek official documentation of any sort before attempting to take the children out of the country. Why?
    Because there is no infrastructure in the country to get official documentation of any sort.

    Fact. The children were in the supposed care of this priest. The whereabouts of the parents unknown. This does not mean they are orphans, just that their parents are missing or the children got cut off from their parents. So it is legal in the US to take children without making sure that they are orphans?
    You are still making things up. Did you even make an effort to read the article?

    The Baptist church members from Idaho called it a "Haitian Orphan Rescue Mission," meant to save abandoned children from the chaos following Haiti's earthquake. Their plan was to scoop up 100 kids and take them by bus to a rented hotel at a beach resort in the Dominican Republic, where they planned to establish an orphanage.
    The kids were abandoned by their parents. This is verified by the person who took them in. Do you have any evidence to prove the contrary?

    Fact. Either these people are stupid which is a valid excuse or they are part of some sort of child trafficking ring. I hope and suspect the first one, but the latter can not be dismissed just because they claim to be from a church somewhere.
    In an anti-religious world it is very easy to come up with black and white reasons for why these people did it. In the real world however, it is not.

    This has nothing to do with them being Americans, nothing to do with them being from some church. They broke the law period.
    Of course it does. Your outrage is quite see through. You've compared them to corrupt politicians and show no evidence of corruption, you claim they are brain dead for doing such a thing in a country where there is no infrastructure, political or otherwise to speed up the adoption process and you bring up American kids living in what Haitian kids could only wish for. Your outrage fools nobody.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-31-10 at 02:18 PM.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.
    WTF are you talking about? The United States is huge and has plenty of facilities; there would be plenty of places other than New Orleans to take them. The same is not true of Haiti...it's a small country that doesn't have good facilities ANYWHERE. Comparing bringing Haitian kids to the Dominican Republic, with whisking American kids off to Afghanistan, is ridiculous. And you know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    So they claim. They can claim whatever they want now that they got caught, but we have no clue on what their real motives were. A criminal often claims he is innocent of the crime he is accused off, does that mean we have to believe him?
    There is documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission for their church. I don't believe for one second that YOU actually think that they were sex traffickers. You showed your true colors in your previous post: You just want to stick it to them because they're Christians. Your supposed concern for the law or for Haitian children is completely phony.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    Listen, without the law and rules we have anarchy. Pure and simple. I fully understand that in the situation it is near impossible to go by the book, but that does not mean you throw out the book just because you feel like it.
    Actually, yeah, it does.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    One of the main concerns about children from the first few days after the quake was the possible exploitation of the situation by child sex traffickers. Aid organisation after aid organisation brought it up in the media. There was clear focus on it.
    Then they can focus on real traffickers, instead of missionaries trying to help.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    And here we have supposed well meaning missionaries, wanting to do the same, but they totally avoid all forms of official paperwork and contacts to not only the Haitian government, but also the US and Dominican? You know how bad that looks?
    To anyone who doesn't have a nasty anti-Christian vendetta, it just looks like some well-meaning people doing something foolish due to extreme circumstances.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-10 at 02:25 PM.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL right. So you would have no problems with say Islamic missionaries helping children in post Katria New Orleans and whisking them off to Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan without know if their parents were alive or with the permission of the US government? yea right.
    The United States was not crippled by Katrina. New Orleans, a single city was. What happened? People from all over the country came to help. Your comparison is a huge fail. If our entire country had been crippled by Katrina, MAYBE you'd have a point. No such thing.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    This is the problem with the world. Sentiments for "law" trump the sentiment of saving lives during tragedy. It seems as if these people tried to do something helpful for the children of the earthquake and were not taking these children anywhere in the spirit of "child trafficking". For certain people, borders and law trump human life, and IMO that is wrong. That we would fear to save lives, to satiate some desire to uphold laws instead is the height of arrogance and destructive to any society that engages or approves of such behavior.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    I bet if they were actually child traffickers, they would not have been caught.

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of the officials who 'caught' these aid workers. With the knowledge that criminals are trying to make off with children for nefarious purposes, What would you think if you found people sneaking children out of the country? If you were suspicious enough, I don't think any of the documentation mentioned so far would convince you to go easy.

    I also try to put myself in the shoes of the aid workers. If I had desperate children in my custody, I would probably try to get them to someplace safe, and damn the consequences if I got caught.

    It is just a bad situation, really, as desperate chaos usually is. I am not convinced that anyone in the situation is really wrong.

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    WTF are you talking about? The United States is huge and has plenty of facilities; there would be plenty of places other than New Orleans to take them. The same is not true of Haiti...it's a small country that doesn't have good facilities ANYWHERE. Comparing bringing Haitian kids to the Dominican Republic, with whisking American kids off to Afghanistan, is ridiculous. And you know it.
    I am not comparing, I am talking about the principle by giving an example that is close to home. It is exactly the same.. kidnapping is kidnapping. If they had done it in China, North Korea, any country in Africa, it would still be kidnapping.

    There is documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission for their church. I don't believe for one second that YOU actually think that they were sex traffickers. You showed your true colors in your previous post: You just want to stick it to them because they're Christians. Your supposed concern for the law or for Haitian children is completely phony.
    And there was clear cut message from the Haitian government days after the earthquake that ALL adoptions were halted for the time being because of the fear of child trafficking..

    Then they can focus on real traffickers, instead of missionaries trying to help.
    And just because they are missionaries then they are not suppose to follow the law? give me a freaking break. And just because they are missionaries then they are beyond reproach?

    To anyone who doesn't have a nasty anti-Christian vendetta, it just looks like some well-meaning people doing something foolish due to extreme circumstances.
    Listen I had no clue that they were Christian missionaries when I posted my first post. It is irrelevant. It could be Jesus himself for all I care. You can not take children without the consent of the parents, legal guardians or/and government.

    And in this case there was a clear message from the Haitians that adoptions were banned for the time being and the police were on the look out for child traffickers.

    So either these so called missionaries were insanely dumb or the deliberately kidnapped these kids for whatever reason, good will, child sex or illegal adoption.. does not matter... what they did was illegal.
    PeteEU

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