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Thread: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It is harder to see what these people did as criminal when you have kids. A lot harder. People without kids simply do not understand the difference. It is like losing a parent or friend to cancer or AIDS. You develop compassion for people who have it regardless what political lean you are in.
    I disagree.....
    I would not want my child to be spirited out of the country without the government knowing about it.....
    I do understand the 'Solomons rule' insight though.......

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Partisan View Post
    I disagree.....
    I would not want my child to be spirited out of the country without the government knowing about it.....
    I do understand the 'Solomons rule' insight though.......
    so, you would prefer your dependent child remain in haiti, without an orphanage to live in, rather than be transferred to one in the dominican, where the child could be looked after

    ok
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    I knew that you were going to reply to this so I've been thinking of how I'd reply to your posts for a while. I'll dissect your post and expose why it is nothing more than a reactionary and clearly anti-Christian view.
    Okay..

    The Haitian government is in complete shambles.
    Yea a massive earthquake can do that to a country.

    That by itself would make any attempt to rescue these children an arduous process that would take years.
    And? and rescue from what? Living in a hell hole of a country? That is somehow justification for kidnapping and child trafficking? Does that mean if a child living in a US slum is taken without the single mother who is on drugs consent and without the consent of the authorities, then it is okay because you are "rescuing" the child from a hell hole?

    First of all, there is no infrastructure in Haiti right now to deal with child adoptions.
    So what? There is no infrastructure to do anything there. Does still not excuse breaking the law. There is no infrastructure to keep law and order, no police stations, no courthouses (well few of each but still) and that should some how mean it was legal to go murder people?

    Secondly, the Latin American governments(this would include Brazil) are on a normal day, INCREDIBLY corrupt when dealing with child adoptions, the bureaucracy involved is quite extensive and people are often hustled for money.
    And again.. so what? Again how does it justify breaking the law? Just because the politicians in Chicago are known for being corrupt does not mean it is legal to bypass the law in Chicago..

    I know this because my wife and I have discussed adopting a child from Brazil. We have held off simply because we do not have the time to deal with international child adoption services at the moment.
    Are there not plenty of needy American children? I do hope you do adopt someone one day btw, not meant to be an attempt to be offensive what so ever.. just a question.

    These children were handed over by a renowned pastor in Haiti.
    And so what? Just because it was a pastor handing over these children does that exclude that he is part of a child sex ring? There are no paedophile priests? The Church has not abused children in the past? Being religious does not give you a free pass on following the law.

    The church in Haiti is probably one of the few institutions which is not completely engulfed in corruption.
    Sure....... Just because it is a religious organisation means it cant be even remotely corrupt..

    Regardless of my disagreements with Christianity, it is undoubtable that they have in cases of complete chaos tried to help the most affected.
    Does not change the fact that they broke the law. Religion is not an excuse.

    Whether they have done all they could is another debate. But they have tried. The situation in Haiti and in 2006's tsunami would be examples of that. Baptist churches are a bit more radical in their ways of helping but they non the less have good intentions when they are seen helping children.
    Does not excuse them from breaking the law.

    Finally, these people aren't brain dead or child sex traffickers.
    How do you know that? Either they are braindead because they did not follow the rules, or they deliberately did not want to follow the rules because they were trafficking in children.. either way, the broke the law.

    They are people who saw themselves as being helpless, there is no real government to help these kids. And the government that does exist is so crippled and riddled in corruption that going through their channels is an exercise in futility.
    So you are basically justifying child trafficking based on corruption in a country.. nice to know

    It is a matter of people having good intentions but going the wrong way about it. Your attack is unfounded and pretty biased.
    Hardly.

    First of I did not even know they were from a church.. has not been reported over here and it is irrelevant since being member of a church does not give you a free pass to break the law as you see fit.

    Secondly they broke the freaking law.. deal with it and suffer the consequences. I dont care if they had "good" intentions.. they can claim all they want, the facts are clear. They did not seek or get any official approval from removing these children from Haiti. They are human traffickers pure and simple and should be treated as such.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It is harder to see what these people did as criminal when you have kids. A lot harder. People without kids simply do not understand the difference. It is like losing a parent or friend to cancer or AIDS. You develop compassion for people who have it regardless what political lean you are in. If anything happened to my wife and I, I would only hope somebody would be this brazen rescuing my own kid. Doesn't matter if they are Christian, Atheist or Scientologist. It is a matter of compassion for other humans.
    But then, who cares what you think? Right?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    I have no idea what sort of "official documentation" is needed in Haiti, but in a bureaucratic, corrupt government in the midst of a humanitarian crisis...it probably isn't easy to get it.
    No it aint, but that does still not justify breaking the law. How would you have liked if children in New Orleans were whisked off to other countries after Katrina because of the lack of response and help by the local government? You would be screaming kidnapping and worse I bet.

    Yes, but they were just trying to help.
    So they claim. Paedophiles often claim to be only "helping" children too, does not make it true does it now..

    These people were missionaries from some church with documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. Do you REALLY believe they were child sex traffickers? And if not, then what's the point of punishing them just because they made a mistake?
    I had not heard they were missionaries but that does not matter. And so what if they had documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. They can still not break the bloody law. Are you seriously saying that I went to Haiti now with official documentation that I was on a humanitarian mission, that I could just disregard the law in Haiti.. hey lets kill this guy, he looked odd at me.. ohh she is hot, lets rape her.. hey lets rob that guy.. come on.. you cant be serious.

    Your compassion is marvelous. Punishing them will surely make people more hesitant to help in this or future humanitarian tragedies.
    So now we have to be compassionate with people who are breaking the law just because they either are Christians or/and are supposed trying to do something good?
    PeteEU

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Okay..
    Yea a massive earthquake can do that to a country.

    And? and rescue from what? Living in a hell hole of a country? That is somehow justification for kidnapping and child trafficking? Does that mean if a child living in a US slum is taken without the single mother who is on drugs consent and without the consent of the authorities, then it is okay because you are "rescuing" the child from a hell hole?

    So what? There is no infrastructure to do anything there. Does still not excuse breaking the law. There is no infrastructure to keep law and order, no police stations, no courthouses (well few of each but still) and that should some how mean it was legal to go murder people?
    Now you are just lying or simply misinformed. First of all these kids were not kidnapped. They went under the guardianship of one of Haiti's ministers. They were given over to this group because the church simply could not take care of them

    And again.. so what? Again how does it justify breaking the law? Just because the politicians in Chicago are known for being corrupt does not mean it is legal to bypass the law in Chicago..
    Only Chicago politicians do not break the law for the interests of the populace or any even remotely humanitarian reasons. They break it in the name of self interest. The difference is obvious.

    Are there not plenty of needy American children? I do hope you do adopt someone one day btw, not meant to be an attempt to be offensive what so ever.. just a question.
    Not a single American kid lives on a dollar a day, in a favella with drug lords engaging in broad day light warfare with the police. Please try to see the difference.

    And so what? Just because it was a pastor handing over these children does that exclude that he is part of a child sex ring? There are no paedophile priests? The Church has not abused children in the past? Being religious does not give you a free pass on following the law.
    HE IS NOT PART OF A CHILD SEX RING. This was a humanitarian mission where a pastor asked a group to take care of children. Why do you keep making things up?

    Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border - Yahoo! News

    Silsby said they only had the best of intentions and paid no money for the children. She said her group obtained them through a well-known Haitian pastor named Jean Sanbil of the Sharing Jesus Ministries.
    Silsby, 40, of Boise, Idaho, was asked if she didn't consider it naive to cross the border without adoption papers at a time when Haitians are so concerned about child trafficking. "By no means are we any part of that. That's exactly what we are trying to combat," she said.
    Sure....... Just because it is a religious organisation means it cant be even remotely corrupt..
    Can you prove they are corrupt? So far with the information given, you can not assert this and are just going on "what if".

    Does not change the fact that they broke the law. Religion is not an excuse.

    Does not excuse them from breaking the law.

    How do you know that? Either they are braindead because they did not follow the rules, or they deliberately did not want to follow the rules because they were trafficking in children.. either way, the broke the law.

    So you are basically justifying child trafficking based on corruption in a country.. nice to know

    Hardly.

    First of I did not even know they were from a church.. has not been reported over here and it is irrelevant since being member of a church does not give you a free pass to break the law as you see fit.

    Secondly they broke the freaking law.. deal with it and suffer the consequences. I dont care if they had "good" intentions.. they can claim all they want, the facts are clear. They did not seek or get any official approval from removing these children from Haiti. They are human traffickers pure and simple and should be treated as such.
    You keep repeating the same things over and over again and provide no evidence. First of all these people are not running a sex ring, child trafficking rings or whatever other ring you think they are running. They were asked by a pastor in Haiti to help these kids, secondly your ridiculous outrage at this is nothing more than see through anti-religious rhetoric. You have yet to demonstrate that these people are corrupt. The fact that you are going on false comparisons and "what if" interpretations of the events is quite telling.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-31-10 at 01:36 PM.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    No it aint, but that does still not justify breaking the law. How would you have liked if children in New Orleans were whisked off to other countries after Katrina because of the lack of response and help by the local government? You would be screaming kidnapping and worse I bet.
    If they were "kidnapped" because their parents were missing, by church missionaries trying to help them? No, of course I wouldn't be screaming kidnapping. That's just silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    I had not heard they were missionaries but that does not matter. And so what if they had documented evidence that they were on a humanitarian mission. They can still not break the bloody law. Are you seriously saying that I went to Haiti now with official documentation that I was on a humanitarian mission, that I could just disregard the law in Haiti.. hey lets kill this guy, he looked odd at me.. ohh she is hot, lets rape her.. hey lets rob that guy.. come on.. you cant be serious.
    Dude, they were trying to help, not killing/raping anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU
    So now we have to be compassionate with people who are breaking the law just because they either are Christians or/and are supposed trying to do something good?
    Aha! Now it becomes clear what this is really about, and why you're so adamant that the letter of the law be upheld. Perhaps if you take a step back from your bigotry and look at the situation objectively, you'll see that I'm right. I'm not a Christian (far from it), but your ignorant prejudice toward them is truly repulsive.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 01-31-10 at 01:36 PM.
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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    so, you would prefer your dependent child remain in haiti, without an orphanage to live in, rather than be transferred to one in the dominican, where the child could be looked after

    ok
    Think before you post......
    Apparently you either didn't read my whole post or you lack reading comprehension....
    See the reference to 'Solomons rule'.....

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.

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    Re: Haiti detains Americans taking kids across border

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice Seeker View Post
    I think regardless of whether they were trying to help that they still broke the law. I wouldn't want to be kidnapped by some Canadian forces and brought across the boarder to Canada... when I didn't want to if the U.S. was under martial law and they were "just trying to help". The situation still applies here. It's kidnapping- even if they were trying to help- what they did was wrong and they shouldn't have broken the law. They should have checked with the government first to see if it was okay.
    They weren't kidnapped. Read the article. The kids were handed over by their caretaker.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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