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Thread: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

  1. #21
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
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    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by washunut View Post
    Does it seem absurd to anyone else that a President and his press secretary who keep saying that we live by the rule of law says let's have a trial and then execute them?

    If we heard that from another ruler we would say what a despot and what a quote their judicial system must be.

    We aren't even going through the motions of having a fair trial so why bother.
    I think Obama knows all of those guys are terrorists. But even the Nazis got a trial. And they killed 6 Million people and plunged the world into World War II.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    Okay. All good points. But that leaves us with indefinitely detaining an "enemy combatant" simply because the government declares them guilty. The part where the government "declared him guilty" does not inspire confidence in me. This is the same government that has a long track record of screw ups and mismanagement.

    What about a military trial? Either on a military installation with security provided by the military (saves money) and the press tightly controlled but still allowed some access?
    That is always an option and is in fact being used for many of the detainees. When the Obama Administration finished its review of Gitmo, they broke the detainees down into 4 groups:

    1) Those that could be released pending approval from the recipient country,
    2) Those that could face civilian trial,
    3) Those that could not face civilian trial, but could be tried by military tribunal, and
    4) Those that could not face trial at all and must be held indefinitely

    Even with that, the argument that the trials will protect against governmental incompetence is largely mooted by the fact that these trials will play little to no role in the eventual determination of disposition. If KSM were cleared of all charges tomorrow, the government would still detain him indefinitely, so the trial does not protect against incompetence at all.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  3. #23
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
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    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    That is always an option and is in fact being used for many of the detainees. When the Obama Administration finished its review of Gitmo, they broke the detainees down into 4 groups:

    1) Those that could be released pending approval from the recipient country,
    2) Those that could face civilian trial,
    3) Those that could not face civilian trial, but could be tried by military tribunal, and
    4) Those that could not face trial at all and must be held indefinitely

    Even with that, the argument that the trials will protect against governmental incompetence is largely mooted by the fact that these trials will play little to no role in the eventual determination of disposition. If KSM were cleared of all charges tomorrow, the government would still detain him indefinitely, so the trial does not protect against incompetence at all.
    So who (or what) plays the major role "in the eventual determination of disposition"? Is that still being determined by the Military and the CIC?
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    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    So who (or what) plays the major role "in the eventual determination of disposition"? Is that still being determined by the Military and the CIC?
    The executive, with the advice of the military and interrogators. Once an individual is declared an enemy combatant, the executive has near-unlimited authority to determine what to do with them. By allowing some of these individuals to face civilian trial, the exec is trying to create an image of legitimacy for the entire process. However, the end result of these trials will probably not be much different than if they were detained in the first place. The only people who the exec is letting go to trial are those for whom conviction is assured. If the case was more iffy, they wouldn't risk the bad publicity by letting the case be heard in civilian court.

    For the vast majority of detainees, the end result of this process will be similar or identical to what would have happened under the past system or under a system of military trial.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    As long as I can still have a few beers at Gully's, I'm OK with it......

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