Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 25

Thread: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

  1. #11
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    I wonder why so many people are so afraid of bringing terrorists to trial?
    It's unnecessary and a waste of money. They should be executed without trial.

  2. #12
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    02-22-10 @ 07:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    822

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    It's unnecessary and a waste of money. They should be executed without trial.
    Believe it or not I agree on the execution, but only after a trial, and only if they're found guilty. And the trial can't be behind closed doors.

    Remember, not all of these guys were guilty. Many at Gitmo have been allowed to go free in the last few years. And the Bush administration let them go, not Obama.
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

    -------------------------------------------------

  3. #13
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    02-22-10 @ 07:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    822

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by jujuman13 View Post
    The main problem is that Obama will do anything he can to avoid a Military trial.
    For if they are found to be guilty and subsequently be given the Death sentence, he as President would have to sign off with this sentence being carried out.
    Obama is currently the Commander in Chief of the US Armed Forces. People under his command have been carrying out orders to kill for over a year.

    I don't think Obama has a problem signing an execution order. If he even would need to do such a thing? I have no idea of the laws and protocols for a military tribunal of this magnitude. At Nuremberg several nations were represented so the hangings were carried out with the cooperation of several nations. I think?
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

    -------------------------------------------------

  4. #14
    Girthless
    RightinNYC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    New York, NY
    Last Seen
    01-23-11 @ 11:56 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Conservative
    Posts
    25,894

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    WHat kind of backwards state has a city and a town named exactly the same
    New York, New York, it's a hell of a town.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    I wonder why so many people are so afraid of bringing terrorists to trial? They're just humans. They're not SUPER humans or mutants. It's not like we've captured Magneto.
    I don't think it's that people are scared, it's that people don't think the costs outweigh the benefits.

    For a normal criminal accused of a normal crime, there are many factors weighing in favor of a normal trial. As a citizen, he has a strong interest and expectation that he receive a civilian trial. As a society, we place a strong value on protecting the innocent - we don't want the guilty to sit in prison. And although the trial will cost money, the amount is small enough that it makes it a fair price to pay for justice.

    In a case like this, those factors cut strongly in the other direction. As an enemy combatant, KSM has no expectation that he will receive a civilian trial, nor does he have any right to such. The concerns about not incarcerating the innocent are nonexistent here - the government has already declared him guilty, and even in the incredibly unlikely event that he is convicted, the government will simply continue to detain him as an enemy combatant. Finally, the costs of this trial will be mindboggling.

    When the Blind Sheik was tried and convicted in NYC, the eventual costs of providing security for the Judge alone were $28 million. Here, they're proposing to try five different defendants, which would add up to around $150m in judicial security in and of itself. Once you factor in the additional hundreds of millions for security in the courthouse and surrounding area, you reach the $400 million figure being bandied around.

    The question really comes down to this: Is a constitutionally unnecessary "trial" for 5 non-citizen terrorists who will never be released regardless of outcome really worth $400,000,000?
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 01-31-10 at 07:58 PM.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  5. #15
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    Believe it or not I agree on the execution, but only after a trial, and only if they're found guilty. And the trial can't be behind closed doors.
    A notorious terrorist mastermind is not legally or morally entitled to any trial, whether it be a military tribunal or a civilian trial conducted under the auspices of Constitutional due process.

    The proper treatment for a notorious unlawful combatant such as KSM is exploitation followed immediately by a bullet to the back of the head.

    Remember, not all of these guys were guilty. Many at Gitmo have been allowed to go free in the last few years. And the Bush administration let them go, not Obama.
    It should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Some of the more ambiguous cases should be reviewed by a military tribunal whereas the more obvious cases (KSM) should be processed in a manner consistent with my previous methods.

  6. #16
    Professor
    CrusaderRabbit08's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Last Seen
    05-13-10 @ 02:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    2,022

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    We're the United States of America; nobody is better at holding trials and locking people up than we are. We are the prison kings!
    LOL

  7. #17
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    02-22-10 @ 07:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    822

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    A notorious terrorist mastermind is not legally or morally entitled to any trial, whether it be a military tribunal or a civilian trial conducted under the auspices of Constitutional due process.
    How do you know he's a "notorious terrorist mastermind" if you don't hold some kind of trial and present evidence that he's a "notorious terrorist mastermind"?

    It should be decided on a case-by-case basis. Some of the more ambiguous cases should be reviewed by a military tribunal whereas the more obvious cases (KSM) should be processed in a manner consistent with my previous methods.
    I don't have a problem with military tribunals; I think they're a good idea. I would like for everything that happens in them to be a matter of public record though. I'm not asking for cameras in the court room, but some public record of everything that happens that is accessible to the media and the public.
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

    -------------------------------------------------

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    How do you know he's a "notorious terrorist mastermind" if you don't hold some kind of trial and present evidence that he's a "notorious terrorist mastermind"?
    He admitted it. But that's besides the point...a summary execution is standard protocol for unlawful combatants captured in the field, though I wouldn't be adverse to some sort of cursory tribunal. Obviously, mistakes will be made but that's no reason to throw out an accepted military practice. I mean, innocent people die in the criminal justice system, too, but that doesn't mean we should get rid of the courts.

    I don't have a problem with military tribunals; I think they're a good idea. I would like for everything that happens in them to be a matter of public record though. I'm not asking for cameras in the court room, but some public record of everything that happens that is accessible to the media and the public.
    I would agree, except that it be done at the sole discretion of the tribunal. Sometimes secrecy is beneficial, even essential.

  9. #19
    Sage

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:51 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Slightly Liberal
    Posts
    8,351

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    Believe it or not I agree on the execution, but only after a trial, and only if they're found guilty. And the trial can't be behind closed doors.

    Remember, not all of these guys were guilty. Many at Gitmo have been allowed to go free in the last few years. And the Bush administration let them go, not Obama.
    Does it seem absurd to anyone else that a President and his press secretary who keep saying that we live by the rule of law says let's have a trial and then execute them?

    If we heard that from another ruler we would say what a despot and what a quote their judicial system must be.

    We aren't even going through the motions of having a fair trial so why bother.

  10. #20
    Educator Winnb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    02-22-10 @ 07:09 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    822

    Re: Mayor Valentine wants 9/11 trial in Newburgh

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    New York, New York, it's a hell of a town.



    I don't think it's that people are scared, it's that people don't think the costs outweigh the benefits.

    For a normal criminal accused of a normal crime, there are many factors weighing in favor of a normal trial. As a citizen, he has a strong interest and expectation that he receive a civilian trial. As a society, we place a strong value on protecting the innocent - we don't want the guilty to sit in prison. And although the trial will cost money, the amount is small enough that it makes it a fair price to pay for justice.

    In a case like this, those factors cut strongly in the other direction. As an enemy combatant, KSM has no expectation that he will receive a civilian trial, nor does he have any right to such. The concerns about not incarcerating the innocent are nonexistent here - the government has already declared him guilty, and even in the incredibly unlikely event that he is convicted, the government will simply continue to detain him as an enemy combatant. Finally, the costs of this trial will be mindboggling.

    When the Blind Sheik was tried and convicted in NYC, the eventual costs of providing security for the Judge alone were $28 million. Here, they're proposing to try five different defendants, which would add up to around $150m in judicial security in and of itself. Once you factor in the additional hundreds of millions for security in the courthouse and surrounding area, you reach the $400 million figure being bandied around.

    The question really comes down to this: Is a constitutionally unnecessary "trial" for 5 non-citizen terrorists who will never be released regardless of outcome really worth $400,000,000?
    Okay. All good points. But that leaves us with indefinitely detaining an "enemy combatant" simply because the government declares them guilty. The part where the government "declared him guilty" does not inspire confidence in me. This is the same government that has a long track record of screw ups and mismanagement.

    What about a military trial? Either on a military installation with security provided by the military (saves money) and the press tightly controlled but still allowed some access?
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

    -------------------------------------------------

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •