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Thread: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    You equivocate your position.
    How so? btw sorry I answed for you
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    While I agree Roeder is an extreamist and what he did was wrong there is a difference. Roeder killed a Docter who kills babies because he wanted to stop Tiller from killing babies. Muslim extreamist kill innocent men women and babies indiscriminately because they are evil. Dr Tiller was closer to a muslim extreamist than Scott Roeder is.
    In the eyes of what you call the Muslim "extremists", the people they killed were not innocent.

    In the eyes of many people Doctor Tiller was innocent of any crime.

    Seems like everything is based upon one's perspective doesn't it?
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Look, all board politics aside...this is kinda sick to consider in terms of the gravity of the situation being discussed.
    What's sick is skirting the law to perform very late term abortions, not discussing a murder on a forum.

    My boss recently fired 2 guys who turned out to be registered sex offenders. Neither one of them were legally required to tell their employer any more, but the boss lady didn't want folks like that around.

    Since she didn't have "good cause" to terminate them, she knew that she would have to accept paying them workman's comp if she terminated them.

    She chose to pay the workman's comp and send them packing. She knew the consequences of her decision when she made it, and she doesn't cry about the additional over head.

    Scott Roeder does not appear to be a psychopathic loon acting impulsively. In fact everything about this story leads me to believe this is an issue he thought long and hard about. The court would seem to agree with this in it's conviction, that he knew what he was doing well in advance.

    He weighed his options and accepted the consequences of his choice. The left likes choice, right? Well, he made his.

    If you don't like abortion doctors being assassinated, don't kill one. I don't because I don't want the personal consequences. Apparently folks like Scott Roeder are willing to take those consequences.

    Also, if you don't want people gunning you down in church, don't skirt the law to perform very late term abortion. I hope every other late term abortion doctor takes this incident as a sign to stay well within the law.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-31-10 at 11:55 AM.

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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    In the eyes of what you call the Muslim "extremists", the people they killed were not innocent.

    In the eyes of many people Doctor Tiller was innocent of any crime.

    Seems like everything is based upon one's perspective doesn't it?
    Really, please explain how random people shopping in a market in Baghdad who died when a muslim extremist detonates a bomb are not innocent?

    I can explain how Dr Tiller was not innocent because as a child I was taught the difference between right and wrong something many pro choice (pro abortion) supporters seem to struggle with.

    A persons perspective is not always correct is it?
    Last edited by SgtRock; 01-31-10 at 11:56 AM.
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Really, please explain how random people shopping in a market in Baghdad who died when a muslim extremist detonates a bomb are not innocent?
    Perspective. Those people were probably American sympathizers. They may have even cooperated with American soldiers. Therefore they've become aligned with the "Great Satan" or whatever nonsense they call us. From the perspective of the Muslim extremists those people were sinners and deserved to die.


    I can explain how Dr Tiller was not innocent because as a child I was taught the difference between right and wrong something many pro choice (pro abortion) supporters seem to struggle with.

    A persons perspective is not always correct is it?
    A person's perspective is always correct. For them. You and I may disagree with it, but they don't care if we disagree. In their mind they're always right.

    I'm sure you've seen about 10,000 examples of that right here on this forum.

    IMO Doctor Tiller is a perfect example of what we're discussing. Some people considered him a baby killer. Many others believed he provided a necessary and perfectly legal medical procedure. That's a HUGE difference in perspective.
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    While I agree Roeder is an extreamist and what he did was wrong there is a difference. Roeder killed a Docter who kills babies because he wanted to stop Tiller from killing babies. Muslim extreamist kill innocent men women and babies indiscriminately because they are evil. Dr Tiller was closer to a muslim extreamist than Scott Roeder is.
    This is exactly the kind of hypocrisy that I'm talking about.

    Terrorists don't kill innocent people 'because they are evil'. They do it because it will further their goals and/or ideals. They believe that their ideals are more important than the lives they are taking, and religion plays a large part in their reasoning. They believe that if the rightful authority is not going to stand up for what they believe is right, then it is up to them to take the necessary actions themselves, and damn the consequences.

    Roeder killed Tiller because it furthered his ideals. He believed those ideals were more important than Tiller's life, and religion played a large part in his reasoning. He believed that since the rightful authority was not going to stand up for what he believed was right, then it was up to him to take the necessary actions himself, and damn the consequences.

    Face it, Roeder's attack was terrorism. It might not be the kind of terrorism that we're used to, but that's what it was.
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    No I'm not. If a person believes abortion is murder, and I have heard many people on the pro-life side make that very claim, then those people should be doing everything in their power to stop those murders.

    I don't know how else to explain it.

    The laws of the US allow a person to commit justifiable homicide. Self defense falls under those laws.

    If there were a person on my street going around killing babies and the police or government refused to do anything to stop him, then I would.
    And here's where your idea breaks down - your hypothetical individual would have to apply laws selectively for it to work.

    If he believes that abortionists are murderers but believes in the bible as law, then he cannot kill the guy in cold blood.

    If he believes that abortionists are murderers but follows the state's law, then self defense would be justified in order to prevent homicide, as defined by the state, which does not include abortion.

    Either way, there is no justification for doing what you claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    No not at all. Because I don't know where those murderers are. I suppose I could randomly ride around and hope I stumble upon one. The odds of that seem pretty slim though don't you think?
    Right now, there are millions of people around the world starving to death. If you sold all non-essential items in your life and moved into a tiny apartment, you could send enough money overseas to save dozens of lives. Because you haven't done that yet, I can only conclude that you're "pro-tiny-children-starving-to-death."

    Does that make sense to you?
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    What's sick is skirting the law to perform very late term abortions, not discussing a murder on a forum.
    Keep in mind though that not all late-term abortions skirt the law. Tiller did a lot of late-term abortions because the mother's life was in jeopardy, and no doubt saved dozens of lives during his years there. It's short-sighted to try to make him out to be nothing but a monster. Regardless of your views on abortion, I think you have to try to recognize that he did some good.
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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Keep in mind though that not all late-term abortions skirt the law. Tiller did a lot of late-term abortions because the mother's life was in jeopardy, and no doubt saved dozens of lives during his years there. It's short-sighted to try to make him out to be nothing but a monster. Regardless of your views on abortion, I think you have to try to recognize that he did some good.
    If you perform even one shady very late term abortion, assault a single infant, or rape even one child, I'll applaud your death.

    That one act crosses out all the good you've ever don in your life.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-31-10 at 12:16 PM.

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    Re: Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    And here's where your idea breaks down - your hypothetical individual would have to apply laws selectively for it to work.

    If he believes that abortionists are murderers but believes in the bible as law, then he cannot kill the guy in cold blood.

    If he believes that abortionists are murderers but follows the state's law, then self defense would be justified in order to prevent homicide, as defined by the state, which does not include abortion.

    Either way, there is no justification for doing what you claim.
    There is a justification, it's called justifiable homicide. The bible is irrelevant. If Roeder believed Doctor Tiller was murdering babies then Roeder was perfectly justified to kill Doctor Tiller. Your explanation only works if you don't believe abortion is murder. If a pro-lifer truly believes abortion is murder then they must believe the killing of abortion doctors is justified.

    The pro-lifers can't have it both ways. They don't get to call abortion doctors "Baby killers" and "murderers" and then stand on the sidelines and do nothing but hold up signs or write their Congressman.

    If someone were planning to kill my child I would put a bullet right between their eyes. Consequences be damned. The bible be damned. And the law be damned. I would defend a life with deadly force.


    Right now, there are millions of people around the world starving to death. If you sold all non-essential items in your life and moved into a tiny apartment, you could send enough money overseas to save dozens of lives. Because you haven't done that yet, I can only conclude that you're "pro-tiny-children-starving-to-death."

    Does that make sense to you?
    No it does not. You're comparing abortion, a perfectly legal procedure performed by a physician, to world hunger. The enormity of scale alone makes that comparison impossible for me to defend.

    So again, my only point - Pro-lifers call abortion doctors "murderers" and then refuse, out of fear I assume, to act to stop those "murderers" from committing their crimes. Until pro-lifers are willing to stand up and do what is necessary in defense of babies I can only draw one of two conclusions:

    1. Pro-lifers don't really believe abortion doctors are murderers. Calling them murderers and baby killers is just their way of denigrating doctors and the women who seek abortions. It's all hyperbole.

    Or...

    2. Pro-lifers are cowards who refuse to act on their belief that babies are being killed.

    So which is it?
    Last edited by Winnb; 01-31-10 at 12:33 PM.
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