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Verdict reached in Kan. abortion slaying trial

jallman said:
We disagree here and this is a point of contention that leads us to conflict. I would prefer that I know your stance and you know mine and we move on from there.
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For me to do something like Scott Roeder did, it would have to be deeply personal...Dr. Tiller would have to abort my child, for example, for the thought to even come to mind.

I don't know if or how late term abortion was deeply personal to Scott Roeder, so I'm not sure how to proceed.

I'm certainly not going to support vigilantism for the sake of ideology. I would have to be personally affected to a great degree to be pushed that far.
 
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Jerry said:
For me to do something like Scott Roeder did, it would have to be deeply personal...Dr. Tiller would have to abort my child, for example, for the thought to even come to mind.

I don't know if or how late term abortion was deeply personal to Scott Roeder, so I'm not sure how to proceed.

I'm certainly not going to support vigilantism for the sake of ideology. I would have to be personally affected to a great degree to be pushed that far.
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In light of this statement, we come closer to a consensus. If it were personal, I would have to give you lattitude by nature of our personal interaction. The law, however, must not.
 
I'm with Jerry on this one. I don't support vigilantism except as a "last option", but I'm still glad Tiller is dead. He is truly evil man. Truly, truly evil...
 
Ethereal said:
I'm with Jerry on this one. I don't support vigilantism except as a "last option", but I'm still glad Tiller is dead. He is truly evil man. Truly, truly evil...
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Then you have some contradictory idealogies to reconcile, just like Jerry. :shrug:
 
Ethereal said:
I'm with Jerry on this one. I don't support vigilantism except as a "last option", but I'm still glad Tiller is dead. He is truly evil man. Truly, truly evil...
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Do you believe Doctor Tiller was a murderer? If yes, then do you also believe he would have continued to murder babies.
 
jallman said:
Then you have some contradictory idealogies to reconcile, just like Jerry. :shrug:
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That's probably true. I don't espouse perfect consistency. I'm totally willing to admit when my position comes from emotion, which is why I would never advocate it as policy, instead, I reserve and acknowledge it as my biased opinion.

Good riddance, Tiller! Ya sick bastard...:2razz:
 
Winnb said:
Do you believe Doctor Tiller was a murderer? If yes, then do you also believe he would have continued to murder babies.
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Murder would imply that his killings were unlawful, which they weren't (investigations notwithstanding), so, technically, he's not a murderer.

Now, do I believe he was immorally killing human beings? Yes, I do, and I believe he would've continued in his ways, but so long as the coercive power of the state was behind him, there isn't much I'd be willing to do about it. Is that also somewhat inconsistent? Probably, but I'm okay with that.
 
Ethereal said:
Murder would imply that his killings were unlawful, which they weren't (investigations notwithstanding), so, technically, he's not a murderer.

Now, do I believe he was immorally killing human beings? Yes, I do, and I believe he would've continued in his ways, but so long as the coercive power of the state was behind him, there isn't much I'd be willing to do about it. Is that also somewhat inconsistent? Probably, but I'm okay with that.
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Well abortion damn sure isn't a simple issue so I'm pretty sure we're all a little inconsistent.
 
I am also with Jerry on this issue. He is much better at getting his point across than I am.
 
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Ethereal said:
That's probably true. I don't espouse perfect consistency. I'm totally willing to admit when my position comes from emotion, which is why I would never advocate it as policy, instead, I reserve and acknowledge it as my biased opinion.

Good riddance, Tiller! Ya sick bastard...:2razz:
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Well you are doing better than most. You are being honest and I can respect that.

I, personally, think the world is better off without Tiller, too. My personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant, however.

You're still the hottest DP'er I know.
 
Winnb said:
Actually that is my point. If abortion doctors are not murderers then why shouldn't abortions remain legal? Which means our abortion laws should not be changed and Roe versus Wade was the correct decision.
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Uh, what? Since when does something have to be murder before we can place restrictions on it?

Government places restrictions on or otherwise outlaws thousands of things, few of which are designed to prevent murder.
 
Ethereal said:
That's probably true. I don't espouse perfect consistency. I'm totally willing to admit when my position comes from emotion, which is why I would never advocate it as policy, instead, I reserve and acknowledge it as my biased opinion.

Good riddance, Tiller! Ya sick bastard...:2razz:
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My thoughts exactly.

I would never support vigilantism as policy, but that I could see some far off exotic scenario where I would knowingly and willing brake those laws anyway.

You know those women who say that they would abort even if the ZEF were legally a "person"? That's where my mind is here. Unlike pro-choice, however, I'm not claiming "they're going to do it anyway so make assassination legal".
 
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jallman said:
Well you are doing better than most. You are being honest and I can respect that.

I, personally, think the world is better off without Tiller, too. My personal feelings on the matter are irrelevant, however.

You're still the hottest DP'er I know.
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Indeed. I am honest as well as attractive, that much is certainly true...:2razz:
 
RightinNYC said:
Uh, what? Since when does something have to be murder before we can place restrictions on it?

Government places restrictions on or otherwise outlaws thousands of things, few of which are designed to prevent murder.
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I never said abortion should have no restrictions. I said our abortion laws should remain as they are. And there are definitely already restrictions on abortions.

I also stated Roe v Wade was the correct decision. The court decided to place restrictions on abortions after the fetus was "viable". Even the 2 dissenting Justices (I don't remember who) ruled that the abortion issue should remain with the states. Even the dissenters didn't attempt to define when life begins.

EDIT: I went back and checked my posts to make sure I never said abortions should not have restrictions. I can't find it. That is not a position I have ever taken.
 
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Winnb said:
I never said abortion should have no restrictions. I said our abortion laws should remain as they are. And there are definitely already restrictions on abortions.

I also stated Roe v Wade was the correct decision. The court decided to place restrictions on abortions after the fetus was "viable". Even the 2 dissenting Justices (I don't remember who) ruled that the abortion issue should remain with the states. Even the dissenters didn't attempt to define when life begins.

EDIT: I went back and checked my posts to make sure I never said abortions should not have restrictions. I can't find it. That is not a position I have ever taken.
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My point is that there are plenty of things that are illegal that don't involve murderers.

You said:

If abortion doctors are not murderers then why shouldn't abortions remain legal?
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Using your logic:

The drug dealer on my corner is not a murderer, why should drugs remain illegal?
The prostitute on my corner is not a murderer, why should prostitution remain illegal?
The tax cheat down my hall is not a murderer, why should tax fraud remain illegal?

etc.

The fact that abortion is not murder is not proof that it should be legal. It's simply proof that it's not murder.
 
RightinNYC said:
My point is that there are plenty of things that are illegal that don't involve murderers.

You said:



Using your logic:

The drug dealer on my corner is not a murderer, why should drugs remain illegal?
The prostitute on my corner is not a murderer, why should prostitution remain illegal?
The tax cheat down my hall is not a murderer, why should tax fraud remain illegal?

etc.

The fact that abortion is not murder is not proof that it should be legal. It's simply proof that it's not murder.
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Ah. Fair enough. And no, I'm certainly not in favor of legalizing everything just because nobody gets killed doing it.
 
Winnb said:
And no, I'm certainly not in favor of legalizing everything just because nobody gets killed doing it.
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Mmmmm, I don't know. I think you might be...;)
 
Navy Pride said:
To bad he did not get the death penalty.....
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If you are anti-abortion because you view the "fetus" as a unborn human child/baby then why one earth would you want the death of the man who killed that "butcher". For some reason I do not believe that you really believe Tiller to be the butcher you claim he is. If Tiller's victims were adults I do not think you would be wanting the death of his killer,I think you would be calling Tiller's killer a hero.


..By killing that butcher he actually hurt the cause of us pro lifers.............
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How?Because people who think of a unborn baby as nothing more than a toenail somehow think pro-lifers are crazy?
 
jamesrage said:
If you are anti-abortion because you view the "fetus" as a unborn human child/baby then why one earth would you want the death of the man who killed that "butcher". For some reason I do not believe that you really believe Tiller to be the butcher you claim he is. If Tiller's victims were adults I do not think you would be wanting the death of his killer,I think you would be calling Tiller's killer a hero.

How?Because people who think of a unborn baby as nothing more than a toenail somehow think pro-lifers are crazy?
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Oh this is about to get really good...

man-eating-popcorn_~ih017078.jpg
 
Hatuey said:
Oh this is about to get really good...

homer-eating-popcorn.jpg
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You do not find it strange for someone to be calling a man a butcher, baby killer or baby serial killer while at the same time wanting his killer to face the death penalty?
 
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