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Thread: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    You're right. It's based upon my first-hand experience in the modern military. Much more reliable than arcane historical analysis.
    Really? What kind of experience did you have that would make you any sort of reliable person of general morale? Did you conduct research on the rest of the armed forces? See their social dynamics? No. Historical evidence is a lot more reliable than your "first-hand" and biased experience in this matter.

    How do you know the Marines adapted well to desegregation? Can you show that more people didn't die because of increased unit friction?

    For one thing, we're not in a desperate World War anymore, which means we can play the numbers game a little tighter with the troops' lives. The Generals didn't have that luxury in WWII with desegregation. The amount of people who would die as a result of unit friction was mathematically offset by the infusion of black soldiers. It's not as much of a numbers game, anymore.
    This is really a ridiculously ignorant argument. The history of black soldiers during WWII proves that the military under stressful situations the military simply will not disintegrate in the manner you picture it. Much less with something as socially trivial as openly gay soldiers serving.

    During WWII more people volunteered for the military than at any other point in American history with the exception of the Civil War and the Independence War. That said, the fact that the majority of socially conservative men within the military stayed and the volunteering rate only went up as the war rolled into 1944 and 1945 shows that radical change is nowhere near the issue you make it out to be.

    This is supported by the sheer number of people involved with the military at the time :

    Today's U.S. forces number somewhere around 1.5-2 million. In the early 1940s it grew to 11 million people. A small minority of which were black soldiers. How "desperate" were we for soldiers? Not all that desperate. More people were joining every year that the war went on. Your argument simply isn't based on historical evidence.

    What does military policy have to do with social conservatism? Are you saying I'm a social conservative? If my position isn't grounded in reality, then what is it grounded in?
    No. I am saying your position is that of social conservatives. What do you not understand about that? It is not grounded in reality because it is not supported by any examples or historical evidence. Just on your own biased and sociologically inept understanding of the military. Regardless of how long you've served your personal experience is worthless in this matter because it does not concern the few hundred servicemen you might have met in your service. It concerns a few hundred thousand. You were never involved in policy making, research or can provide an accurate picture of how the military as a whole will react.

    Obviously, if this were a matter of what individual units might think of the change, then your opinion would be reasonable. However it is not. It is a matter of how the military as a whole will react to social changes. So far we've seen that it reacts quite well even during the most stressful situations.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    Well now you're talking about violence against gays in the military should it be discovered they're gay.
    Partially, yes, but there's more to it than that. In my opinion, repealing DADT would create extra friction in units that can ill afford it.

    Why would Marines not be fond of other gay Marines living and training with them? The gay Marines have passed all of the same training and requirements. They may have even served beside each other in battle.

    Why would that cause a problem?
    Homophobia, dude. How many times do I have to say it? The Marine infantry is a small gun club and I know it intimately. Homophobia is not rampant, but it's definitely substantial.

    You have stated that "Homophobia has a very biological quality to it". That's quite a statement. Are you saying homophobia is a trait people are born with and can't be helped?
    No. I don't blame people's shortcomings on their genes. I'm just saying that men are more predisposed towards homophobia because they are genetically aggressive. In addition to this, many infantrymen are Southern and Midwestern Christians. Do you think none of this matters?

    You also seem to be assuming that homophobia is rampant in the Marines. I don't believe that. And then you hinted that homophobia would cause violent actions to be taken against gay Marines. So you're asserting that straight Marines would take violent action against gay Marines and open themselves up to a Court Martial and imprisonment?

    I have more faith in our military than that. I think our service members are above the pettiness and silliness. And if we remove DADT the issue of who's gay and who's not goes with it.
    That's one way to side-step all my questions and points.

    I also have another question. Just for my own curiosity. Is there some sense of "manliness" being undermined if gay men are allowed to openly serve? If a Marine goes through all of this tough training and then finds out that some gay guy went through it too and not only passed it but surpassed the straight guys, would that cause animosity?
    My senior Marines hated me when I first came to the fleet (probably hated me when I left, too), because my platoon sergeant was impressed with me. They didn't like seeing a "boot" receive praise, so they made things extra hard for me, and I'm not even gay...

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I said this a year ago...

    ...As soon as Obama is done asking the military to bleed for him, he will force the issue. Until then..he's just looking for the gay vote. Clinton spent years and years dealing with the rift between him and the Pentagon over his Don't Ask Don't Tell fiasco. Obama is very well aware. He has military support now. He will not rock the boat in the midst of a war he believes in.

    You people who are enthused over his words will hear the same words next year and the next year and...
    ...Obama is looking for the gay vote? I really doubt that with the way Republicans inside the country treat gays, Obama really has to look all that hard for the "gay vote" whatever that is. Maybe he'd have to work hard for Jallman's vote. But the "gay vote"? No. I do not think so.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Really? What kind of experience did you have that would make you any sort of reliable person of general morale? Did you conduct research on the rest of the armed forces? See their social dynamics? No. Historical evidence is a lot more reliable than your "first-hand" and biased experience in this matter.



    This is really a ridiculously ignorant argument. The history of black soldiers during WWII proves that the military under stressful situations the military simply will not disintegrate in the manner you picture it. Much less with something as socially trivial as openly gay soldiers serving.

    During WWII more people volunteered for the military than at any other point in American history with the exception of the Civil War and the Independence War. That said, the fact that the majority of socially conservative men within the military stayed and the volunteering rate only went up as the war rolled into 1944 and 1945 shows that radical change is nowhere near the issue you make it out to be.

    This is supported by the sheer number of people involved with the military at the time :

    Today's U.S. forces number somewhere around 1.5-2 million. In the early 1940s it grew to 11 million people. A small minority of which were black soldiers. How "desperate" were we for soldiers? Not all that desperate. More people were joining every year that the war went on. Your argument simply isn't based on historical evidence.



    No. I am saying your position is that of social conservatives. What do you not understand about that? It is not grounded in reality because it is not supported by any examples or historical evidence. Just on your own biased and sociologically inept understanding of the military. Regardless of how long you've served your personal experience is worthless in this matter because it does not concern the few hundred servicemen you might have met in your service. It concerns a few hundred thousand. You were never involved in policy making, research or can provide an accurate picture of how the military as a whole will react.

    Obviously, if this were a matter of what individual units might think of the change, then your opinion would be reasonable. However it is not. It is a matter of how the military as a whole will react to social changes. So far we've seen that it reacts quite well even during the most stressful situations.
    I'm not going to waste my time debating you if you're going to misrepresent what I say. You really are such a BS'er sometimes, Hat.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I said this a year ago...

    ...As soon as Obama is done asking the military to bleed for him, he will force the issue. Until then..he's just looking for the gay vote. Clinton spent years and years dealing with the rift between him and the Pentagon over his Don't Ask Don't Tell fiasco. Obama is very well aware. He has military support now. He will not rock the boat in the midst of a war he believes in.

    You people who are enthused over his words will hear the same words next year and the next year and...
    Obama didn't ask the military to bleed for him. He took over a military that was already bleeding. NOW they're bleeding for him.

    Clinton did not spend years dealing with the rift of DADT. Once DADT was in place the issue quietly subsided. Our military is currently the most powerful/ass kicking force on the planet. So it would seem DADT did not have a negative impact on the efficiency of our military.

    Obama is not "looking for the gay vote". Pretty sure he already has most of that. Plus he's still almost 3 years away from his next election.

    So why are you against ending DADT? Also do you think gays should be discharged from the military if it is discovered they are gay?
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm not going to waste my time debating you if you're going to misrepresent what I say. You really are such a BS'er sometimes, Hat.
    What you said :

    I agree, they should be willing to do that, but a lot of the infantry folks won't, so where does that leave us? Just kick out all the conservative Christians and headstrong alpha males? That's like 90% of the Marine Corps infantry!
    My comment stands. The military simply will not disintegrate in the manner that you picture it. 90% of "conservative Christian" men have had to deal with much bigger social changes and it has not affected the military one bit. Matter of fact, we've won wars and even managed to increased the number of volunteers in our military. If you do not like this fact then that is not my fault.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    I said this a year ago...

    ...As soon as Obama is done asking the military to bleed for him, he will force the issue. Until then..he's just looking for the gay vote. Clinton spent years and years dealing with the rift between him and the Pentagon over his Don't Ask Don't Tell fiasco. Obama is very well aware. He has military support now. He will not rock the boat in the midst of a war he believes in.

    You people who are enthused over his words will hear the same words next year and the next year and...
    Nice to see the promotion there MSgt.

    Obama does not have to look for the gay vote, he will get the vast majority of gay voters no matter what he does. Very few people who support gay rights issues are not going to vote for obama.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Partially, yes, but there's more to it than that. In my opinion, repealing DADT would create extra friction in units that can ill afford it.



    Homophobia, dude. How many times do I have to say it? The Marine infantry is a small gun club and I know it intimately. Homophobia is not rampant, but it's definitely substantial.



    No. I don't blame people's shortcomings on their genes. I'm just saying that men are more predisposed towards homophobia because they are genetically aggressive. In addition to this, many infantrymen are Southern and Midwestern Christians. Do you think none of this matters?



    That's one way to side-step all my questions and points.



    My senior Marines hated me when I first came to the fleet (probably hated me when I left, too), because my platoon sergeant was impressed with me. They didn't like seeing a "boot" receive praise, so they made things extra hard for me, and I'm not even gay...
    You know what, you're one of the few people I've ever talked to that has answered those types of questions honestly. Most people try desperately, twisting themselves into knots, to try and avoid using the word homophobia or saying anything bad about our military.

    I appreciate you admitting that homophobia is substantial. And yeah my use of "rampant" was probably a bit much there. But you knew what I meant.

    So now comes the next step. Should we try to find a way to limit and eventually remove that homophobia from our military? I obviously think we should. We risk losing some very good people because of it.

    My opinion is that if someone wants to risk putting their body in harm's way, deal with the travel, the never ending BS, the all powerful hierarchy, and then serve in the defense of this great nation.... well they should be able to do all of that and not worry about getting kicked out because someone found out they were gay.
    Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    What you said...
    ...was in response to a specific point made by another person, who said that we should just get rid of anyone that might be uncomfortable with a gay person serving in their unit; admittedly, I was exaggerating a little bit when I said 90%, but it's still generally true. A lot of grunts would be uncomfortable.

    Anyway, how does this factor into the argument I've made - that is, repealing DADT will not result in disintegration but friction.

    My comment stands.
    How can your comment stand when it has no legs? Really, Hat, this is getting old.

    90% of "conservative Christian" men have had to deal with much bigger social changes and it has not affected the military one bit.
    Really? Not one bit, eh? How do you know that?

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    ...Obama is looking for the gay vote? I really doubt that with the way Republicans inside the country treat gays, Obama really has to look all that hard for the "gay vote" whatever that is. Maybe he'd have to work hard for Jallman's vote. But the "gay vote"? No. I do not think so.
    Oh, do you? Obama is the "pure" politician amongst the thousands? The Gay vote is everyone that has anything to do with any gay in the U.S. of A. and anyone that thrives on the idea of perfect equality and utopia within society. Regardless, he relies upon the military support for his international issues and he will not rock the boat past his words of comfort to gay America.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-29-10 at 12:31 AM.

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