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Thread: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Redress, this is patently false. The study did not say:



    I hope you are not purposely misrepresenting something in order to push an agenda - that's beneath you. Let's clarify this point before we proceed.
    From the study, conclusion section:

    Analyses of these war veterans’ ratings of
    unit cohesion and readiness revealed that knowing a gay or lesbian unit member was
    not uniquely associated with cohesion or readiness, but the quality of leaders, equipment,
    and training was. Thus, these data challenge the contention that openly serving
    lesbian and gay service members are detrimental to unit cohesion and readiness.
    Instead, the data point to the importance of leadership, training, and equipment quality
    for perceptions of unit cohesion and readiness. Fortunately, unlike the sexual orientation
    of service members, which the military cannot control, the military is well equipped
    to shape the quality of leadership, training, and equipment across its units.
    Sorry for the poor formatting, but I am not going back and eliminating line breaks.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    This is argument is not based on any kind of historical research.
    You're right. It's based upon my first-hand experience in the modern military. Much more reliable than arcane historical analysis.

    Matter of fact the USMC has in the past adapted quite well to radical social change.
    How do you know the Marines adapted well to desegregation? Can you show that more people didn't die because of increased unit friction?

    The USMC began enlisting blacks during WWII after over 150 years. While we were at war, while the overwhelming majority of the military was white, while half of the country was still divided by the much deeper lines of Jim Crow. I think it is safe to say that in the 1940s the percentage of liberals within our military was even smaller than it is today. So what changed?
    For one thing, we're not in a desperate World War anymore, which means we can play the numbers game a little tighter with the troops' lives. The Generals didn't have that luxury in WWII with desegregation. The amount of people who would die as a result of unit friction was mathematically offset by the infusion of black soldiers. It's not as much of a numbers game, anymore.

    Why is it that this particular social change, which the majority of Americans are exposed to anyway would create a bigger problem than desegregation of the armed forces? No. I really do not think the social conservative position on this matter is grounded in reality.
    What does military policy have to do with social conservatism? Are you saying I'm a social conservative? If my position isn't grounded in reality, then what is it grounded in?

    I wouldn't ask so many questions, but you're making a lot of open-ended assertions.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
    Fair enough, I was not aware of that. Sounds a bit extreme...
    Did you expect the Marines to be not-extreme?


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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    If it's "common sense" that DADT is "stupid" then why do so many high-ranking military officials support it? Why do I support it? Are you saying I'm a moron?

    All military service members? There's a lot of them, you know.

    It might undermine cohesiveness in combat units.

    I don't fear a mass exodus. I fear increased volatility in combat units, which generally means more dead Americans.

    And what if things don't work out the way you guessed? Just put the cat back in the bag? What a nice mess that would cause - in the middle of two wars, no less.

    Homophobia has a very biological quality to it, which makes it more difficult to ameliorate. Aggressiveness is ingrained into the male's DNA; combine this with intense training and maybe a southern Christian upbringing and you have a guy who might not be too friendly towards a gay fella.

    Nobody makes the same sacrifices in the military. They're all unique to the individual.

    Suppose there's these guys, we'll call them "Marine infantrymen", let's suppose a lot of them are "not fond" of gay guys possibly living and training with them in close quarters for months and years at a time. Would that cause any problems?
    Well now you're talking about violence against gays in the military should it be discovered they're gay.

    Why would Marines not be fond of other gay Marines living and training with them? The gay Marines have passed all of the same training and requirements. They may have even served beside each other in battle.

    Why would that cause a problem?

    You have stated that "Homophobia has a very biological quality to it". That's quite a statement. Are you saying homophobia is a trait people are born with and can't be helped?

    You also seem to be assuming that homophobia is rampant in the Marines. I don't believe that. And then you hinted that homophobia would cause violent actions to be taken against gay Marines. So you're asserting that straight Marines would take violent action against gay Marines and open themselves up to a Court Martial and imprisonment?

    I have more faith in our military than that. I think our service members are above the pettiness and silliness. And if we remove DADT the issue of who's gay and who's not goes with it.

    I also have another question. Just for my own curiosity. Is there some sense of "manliness" being undermined if gay men are allowed to openly serve? If a Marine goes through all of this tough training and then finds out that some gay guy went through it too and not only passed it but surpassed the straight guys, would that cause animosity?

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From the study, conclusion section:



    Sorry for the poor formatting, but I am not going back and eliminating line breaks.
    I read the study, Redress. I'm pretty comfortable with statistical analysis.

    The study does not say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    ...DADT could be eliminated with no problems...
    It just doesn't say that, so please stop insulting my intelligence.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
    Awesome! Slowly but surely America is joining the rest of us in the 21st century!
    You say joining you like it's a good thing.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    From the study, conclusion section:



    Sorry for the poor formatting, but I am not going back and eliminating line breaks.
    So you're saying that all these generals for the last 200 years were wrong?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    So you're saying that all these generals for the last 200 years were wrong?
    All the ones who support repealing DADT and allowing gays to serve openly?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    All the ones who support repealing DADT and allowing gays to serve openly?
    All the ones that thought gays affected morale.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    I said this a year ago...

    ...As soon as Obama is done asking the military to bleed for him, he will force the issue. Until then..he's just looking for the gay vote. Clinton spent years and years dealing with the rift between him and the Pentagon over his Don't Ask Don't Tell fiasco. Obama is very well aware. He has military support now. He will not rock the boat in the midst of a war he believes in.

    You people who are enthused over his words will hear the same words next year and the next year and...

    MSgt
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    USMC

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