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Thread: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

  1. #181
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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Actually, we never really discussed the Rand Study, and they didn't say what you're claiming they did. In fact, they acknowledged some of the study's limitations for drawing conclusions and suggested conducting future studies which were more robust:



    ...
    Actually, they say exactly what I said they do, while basically pointing out in advance any possible problems with the study. Pretty much any quality study points out that more study is needed, however, the results are pretty clear. Let's look at more that they say:

    However, analyses of these war veterans’ ratings of unit cohesion and readiness revealed that knowing a gay or lesbian unit member is not uniquely associated with cohesion or readiness; instead, the quality of leaders, the quality of equipment, and the quality of training are the critical factors associated with unit cohesion and readiness
    Not bad, but I have more brass on my side:

    http://cmrlink.org/CMRDocuments/FGOM...87)-033109.pdf
    And I can find more brass, including several which I did not reference I found getting the ones I did, and one I will mention presently. The point was that just because one guy opposes it does not mean much.

    The Zogby poll was the same data set used in the Rand study, which was inconclusive.
    It was not inconclusive. It was exactly what it was, and does show a change in the attitudes of people in the military.

    Did I say Colin Powell is always right? No, I didn't. I took issue with someone's characterization of DADT as "stupid". Obviously, that person knows much more about the military than Colin Powell and the other upper echelon military commanders who drafted the policy.
    I was saving this for when it was the right time, now is I think that time. Let's look at Powell's actual words on the subject: Time to review policy on gays in U.S. military: Powell | Reuters

    Quote Originally Posted by Colin Powell
    "The policy and the law that came about in 1993, I think, was correct for the time," Powell said on CNN's State of the Union.

    "Sixteen years have now gone by, and I think a lot has changed with respect to attitudes within our country, and therefore I think this is a policy and a law that should be reviewed." he added.

    The onus shouldn't fall on me to support your position. If you want to radically alter the policies of our military then you should provide a rock-solid case in support of your position. That has yet to happen.

    Moreover, my problem isn't with gays serving openly in the military. I don't think that would cause many problems. My issue is specifically about the infantry. Their composition and training is radically different from the residuum.
    This is not a radical change in policy. Remember, about half the people serving in Iraq and Afghanistan reported serving with some one they at least thought was gay. Gays are already there, already serving. This is simply a shift to allow them to serve without having to fear a simple mistake will lead them to a discharge.



    We've already discussed the limitations of the Zogby poll. It does not prove anything.

    So, until you can make a real case in support of your position, I'll just differ to my experience in the military, which is far more robust than any studies you've presented thus far.
    Nothing proves anything about the future. However, all the data so far collected shows that there is unlikely to be significant problems from repealing DADT. This includes the Zogby poll(which was only one aspect of the Rand study), looking at changing attitudes, and looking at other countries militaries that do allow gays to serve openly, among other things. There is no evidence nor reason to believe that gays serving openly will lead to morale or discipline problems, and every reason to believe that quality of command will still be the overwhelming factor contributing to readiness and morale.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Glinda View Post
    And ignoring everyone else's sexual preferences should be a sacrifice any straight patriotic American should be willing to make.
    I agree, they should be willing to do that, but a lot of the infantry folks won't, so where does that leave us? Just kick out all the conservative Christians and headstrong alpha males? That's like 90% of the Marine Corps infantry!

    Are you or are you not so willing?
    I'm plenty willing to serve with a gay man or woman (except no women in the infantry...I know, I'm just a misogynist homophobe), so long as they do their damn job and keep their personal life in check. It's just too bad a lot of guys in the infantry probably don't feel the same way. I must've heard the word "faggot" or "queer" a million times while I was in the Marines.

    That makes you and gay soldiers exactly the same.
    I got no beef with gay people. I'm just trying to be practical when it comes to our military efficiency.

  3. #183
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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I'm plenty willing to serve with a gay man or woman (except no women in the infantry...I know, I'm just a misogynist homophobe), so long as they do their damn job and keep their personal life in check. It's just too bad a lot of guys in the infantry probably don't feel the same way. I must've heard the word "faggot" or "queer" a million times while I was in the Marines.
    Why did it matter how many times you heard the word? I'll bet Marines talk about shagging chicks a lot too....
    "When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. I say enjoy the show, don't take it seriously." - George Carlin

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I agree, they should be willing to do that, but a lot of the infantry folks won't, so where does that leave us? Just kick out all the conservative Christians and headstrong alpha males? That's like 90% of the Marine Corps infantry!
    This is argument is not based on any kind of historical research. Matter of fact the USMC has in the past adapted quite well to radical social change.

    The Right to Fight: African-American Marines in World War II (Basic Racial Policy)

    When the United States began arming against aggression by the Axis powers — Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and Fascist Italy — the Marine Corps had a simple and in flexible policy governing African-Americans: it had not accepted them since its reestablishment in 1798 and did not want them now. In April 1941, during a meeting of the General Board of the Navy — a body roughly comparable to the War Department General Staff — the Commandant of the Marine Corps, Major General Thomas Holcomb, declared that blacks had no place in the organization he headed. "If it were a question of having a Marine Corps of 5,000 whites or 250,000 Negroes," he said, "I would rather have the whites."

    Whereas General Holcomb and the Marine Corps refused to accept African-Americans, the Navy admitted blacks in small numbers, but only to serve as messmen or stewards. The forces of change were gathering momentum, however. President Franklin D. Roosevelt, after meeting in September 1940 with a panel of black leaders, offered African-Americans better treatment and greater opportunity within the segregated armed forces in return for their support of his rearmament program and his attempt to gain an unprecedented third term in the November Presidential election. Roosevelt won that election with the help of those blacks, mainly in the cities of the North, who could still exercise the right to vote, and he did so without antagonizing the Southern segregationists in the Senate and House of Representatives whose support he needed for his anti-Nazi foreign policy.
    1942 :

    He kept pushing, however, for greater opportunities for blacks within the bounds of segregation, and the Navy could not defy the Commander in Chief. Secretary Knox on 7 April 1942 advised the uniformed leaders of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard (a component of the wartime Navy) that they would have to accept African-Americans for general service. Some six weeks later, the Navy Department publicly announced that the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard would enlist about 1,000 African-Americans each month, beginning 1 June, and that the Marines would organize a racially segregated 900-man defense battalion, training the blacks recruited for it from the beginning of boot camp onward.
    The USMC began enlisting blacks during WWII after over 150 years. While we were at war, while the overwhelming majority of the military was white, while half of the country was still divided by the much deeper lines of Jim Crow. I think it is safe to say that in the 1940s the percentage of liberals within our military was even smaller than it is today. So what changed? Why is it that this particular social change, which the majority of Americans are exposed to anyway would create a bigger problem than desegregation of the armed forces? No. I really do not think the social conservative position on this matter is grounded in reality.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 01-28-10 at 11:03 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Winnb View Post
    No not at all. Although I did serve in the Navy over 20 years ago, but that's not what I'm basing my opinion on. I'm basing it on common sense and basic human rights.
    If it's "common sense" that DADT is "stupid" then why do so many high-ranking military officials support it? Why do I support it? Are you saying I'm a moron?

    I'm certain our military service members are smart enough and tough enough to deal with gay men and women.
    All military service members? There's a lot of them, you know.

    What is wrong with removing DADT?
    It might undermine cohesiveness in combat units.

    You seem to assume vast numbers of our service members will immediately demand a discharge if we end don't ask don't tell. Can you please show proof of this mass exodus that you fear?
    I don't fear a mass exodus. I fear increased volatility in combat units, which generally means more dead Americans.

    I'm guessing some service members will complain for awhile, the issue will pass, and life will go on.
    And what if things don't work out the way you guessed? Just put the cat back in the bag? What a nice mess that would cause - in the middle of two wars, no less.

    I'm not sure what that means. The "blackness" was never the problem with desegregation in the military. It wasn't literally about skin color. And you know that. The problem was racism. The problem wasn't with blacks, the problem was with the whites.
    Homophobia has a very biological quality to it, which makes it more difficult to ameliorate. Aggressiveness is ingrained into the male's DNA; combine this with intense training and maybe a southern Christian upbringing and you have a guy who might not be too friendly towards a gay fella.

    I agree. Sacrifices must be made in the military. But gays already make all of the same sacrifices that straight people make. Why should they have to make more sacrifices?
    Nobody makes the same sacrifices in the military. They're all unique to the individual.

    So again, show me what you believe. Tell me how an openly gay person serving in the military causes a problem?
    Suppose there's these guys, we'll call them "Marine infantrymen", let's suppose a lot of them are "not fond" of gay guys possibly living and training with them in close quarters for months and years at a time. Would that cause any problems?

  6. #186
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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Its easy for a bunch of "feel good Liberals"to say hey let them serve openly.....They are not in the military...No skin off their ass........They don't have to live in close quarters with men and women who are physically attracted to them........Sleep in bunks aboard ship that are about a foot apart..........Shower with them........

    In my 20 years in the Navy I have seen violations over and over again...I actually don't blame the gay guys or women.......I equate it to a straight male being put on a ship with only beautiful women...Undressing with them, living in very close quarters, showering with them......I know I could not control myself under those conditions.........I truly doubt if any man could.......


    If this thing is approved there will be a mass exodus of straight senior petty officers and Chiefs.......You can't force this experimentation down peoples throats.....
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by AgentM View Post
    Why did it matter how many times you heard the word?
    Connect the dots.

    I'll bet Marines talk about shagging chicks a lot too....
    There aren't any women in the Marine infantry. And lots of Marines are court-martialed for making "sexist" comments.

  8. #188
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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    And lots of Marines are court-martialed for making "sexist" comments.
    Fair enough, I was not aware of that. Sounds a bit extreme...
    "When you're born you get a ticket to the freak show. I say enjoy the show, don't take it seriously." - George Carlin

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    This is not a radical change in policy. Remember, about half the people serving in Iraq and Afghanistan reported serving with some one they at least thought was gay. Gays are already there, already serving. This is simply a shift to allow them to serve without having to fear a simple mistake will lead them to a discharge.
    I agree with you.

    On the other hand, I feel it's an appeasement for the military gays because Obama want's as many votes as he can get in 2012. Since it's up to the States to vote on "same sex marraige" and Obama has been cowarding this subject, this scores one up for him. It would be a victory for those serving our nation.
    We may not agree on everything but I bet we could find some common ground.

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    Re: Obama to call for 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' repeal, adviser says

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually, they say exactly what I said they do...
    Redress, this is patently false. The study did not say:

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You know about the Rand Corp study for the Pentagon which stated that it DADT could be eliminated with no problems...
    I hope you are not purposely misrepresenting something in order to push an agenda - that's beneath you. Let's clarify this point before we proceed.

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