• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

Yes, but the thing is that republicans, the party of fiscal responsibility supposedly, when in control did nothing, and when not in control block doing anything in terms of the deficit.

When in control: Reagan's non-military spending cuts the largest in history; surplus of the 90s.

When not in control: Voted near-unanimously against stimulus, health care bill, etc.

Also, a slim majority voted against this particular method of reducing the deficit.


I'm not saying Republicans are always fiscally responsible. But to say that they are entirely fiscally un-responsible is just as untrue.
 
And of course here we see part of the problem with your suggestion. Since republicans have shown no willingness to cut spending, suggesting that they would support it, if only it was the right cuts rings false.

I don't think that the average conservative on DP is a good reflection of the average Republican in the Senate.

They have had the chance, and did not do it.

Completely true, though I don't think that necessarily proves they would be opposed to it now.

As a side note, if you look at the annual growth in "discretionary" spending under Bush, it's not particularly large once you exclude Homeland Security/Defense/Veterans - just 3.1%.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy09/pdf/budget/tables.pdf (page 5)

ss is NOT a "pet project, btw, it's the only income many people have in their old age.

Which would horrify the people who came up with SS in the first place. SS was designed as a safety net form of insurance for the destitute, not as a sole or critical source of income. Unless we fix the way people treat the program, we're screwed.
 
Which would horrify the people who came up with SS in the first place. SS was designed as a safety net form of insurance for the destitute, not as a sole or critical source of income. Unless we fix the way people treat the program, we're screwed.

But that was an entirely different time when people saved, and the economy was not completely dependent upon the hyper driven consumer/service spend fest. There are trade offs in an economy of this size given the high income per capita. SS becomes a necessity.
 
as were his deficits. and as a percentage of our economy, no, the revenues were not record breaking.

Yes, they were. Just because more was spent doesn't negate the reality that MORE revenue was taken in. That's a very dishonest stance you've taken.

"Hey, Bush cut taxes and the Government revenue's were record breaking."

"Yeah, but they spent more too so really the revenue's weren't all that great..."


Your logic, eludes reason Redress.
 
Yes, they were. Just because more was spent doesn't negate the reality that MORE revenue was taken in. That's a very dishonest stance you've taken.

"Hey, Bush cut taxes and the Government revenue's were record breaking."

"Yeah, but they spent more too so really the revenue's weren't all that great..."


Your logic, eludes reason Redress.

And wow, did you ever one time consider the demographic differential between post 2000 and the Clinton 90's? Probably not, and surprisingly not...... So....

Did the population grow since 2000? Did wealthy americans (of which pay the most in taxes) see an increase in incomes post 2000? What is the short term effect of a government budget increase?

Lets start there:2wave:
 
But that was an entirely different time when people saved, and the economy was not completely dependent upon the hyper driven consumer/service spend fest. There are trade offs in an economy of this size given the high income per capita. SS becomes a necessity.

First, as low as today's personal savings rate is, it is still higher than it was when SS was enacted.

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

Second, even were that the case, there's a serious question of cause and effect there. Are people relying more on SS because they're too broke to save, or are they saving less because they know that they will have SS? I think there is very strong evidence that it's the latter.

Given that we've seen a drastic increase in disposable income in terms of real dollars:

U.S. Department of Commerce. Bureau of Economic Analysis

(From $6,900 in 1929 to $33,000 in 2009)

I find it very hard to believe that people are less able to save today than they were when SS was instituted.
 
And wow, did you ever one time consider the demographic differential between post 2000 and the Clinton 90's? Probably not, and surprisingly not...... So....

Did the population grow since 2000? Did wealthy americans (of which pay the most in taxes) see an increase in incomes post 2000? What is the short term effect of a government budget increase?

Lets start there:2wave:

Liberals will do anything to ignore the fact that everytime we cut taxes revenue's go up. It's amusing really.

If Higher Taxes are so great, why are Cali and New York doing so bad.
 
Liberals will do anything to ignore the fact that everytime we cut taxes revenue's go up. It's amusing really.

If Higher Taxes are so great, why are Cali and New York doing so bad.

By ignoring my questions and setting up a weak straw man, you are accomplishing what exactly?

Bad? You are going to have to be far more specific. I doubt you are up to the task:lol:
 
By ignoring my questions and setting up a weak straw man, you are accomplishing what exactly?

Bad? You are going to have to be far more specific. I doubt you are up to the task:lol:

Let's compare three states.

New York
California
Texas

New York is Broke | NBC New York
New York has run out of cash and Governor Paterson ordered his budget staff to delay payments to counties, schools, local governments and non-profit service providers until things improve.
During today's speech on Wall Street today, Governor David Paterson and his staff revealed that despite actions taken last week by the state legislature, New York state will essentially end the month of December with a negative billion dollar bank balance.
Tax revenues experienced the worst year to year drop in memory. Sales taxes dropped 11 percent and real estate transfer taxes dropped 430 million dollars. Next year's deficit is now estimated to be between $9-18 billion dollars.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/21calif.html
LOS ANGELES — Direct democracy has once again upended California — enough so that the state may finally consider another way by overhauling its Constitution for the first time in 130 years.
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger returned home from a White House visit on Wednesday to find the state dangerously broke, his constituents defiant after a special election on Tuesday and calls for a constitutional convention — six months ago little more than a wonkish whisper — a cacophony.

As the notion of California as ungovernable grows stronger than ever, Mr. Schwarzenegger, a Republican, has expressed support for a convention to address such things as the state’s arcane budget requirements and its process for proliferate ballot initiatives, both of which necessitated Tuesday’s statewide vote on budget matters approved months ago by state lawmakers.



So there we go.

New York, Cali, going broke.

Texas, sitting pretty.
 
I am *very* concerned about what this illustrates about the dysfunction of our Congress. The Senate can no longer even bring itself to appoint a commission to PROPOSE ways of reducing the deficit. The Republicans have steadfastly refused to compromise on any tax increases, and some Democrats are worried that the commission will propose entitlement cuts. How can we ever hope to get our finances under control if these suggestions are both off-limits forever?

We need some serious reform of the legislative process itself, lest our Congress becomes as dysfunctional as the Italian Parliament. We need to either adopt Sen. Harkin's proposal to ease cloture requirements, or go back to the old Senate rules of requiring those in favor of a filibuster to actually filibuster.

And I'm in favor of even more commissions like these in lieu of the dysfunctional manner in which Congress usually handles financial matters. If it was up to me, we'd have technocrats writing the legislation for just about all economic issues, with Congress only getting to vote yes or no.
 
Last edited:
I am *very* concerned about what this illustrates about the dysfunction of our Congress. The Senate can no longer even bring itself to appoint a commission to PROPOSE ways of reducing the deficit. The Republicans have steadfastly refused to compromise on any tax increases, and some Democrats are worried that the commission will propose entitlement cuts. How can we ever hope to get our finances under control if these suggestions are both off-limits forever?

We need some serious reform of the legislative process itself, lest our Congress becomes as dysfunctional as the Italian Parliament. We need to either adopt Sen. Harkin's proposal to ease cloture requirements, or go back to the old Senate rules of requiring those in favor of a filibuster to actually filibuster.

And I'm in favor of even more commissions like these in lieu of the dysfunctional manner in which Congress usually handles financial matters. If it was up to me, we'd have technocrats writing the legislation for just about all economic issues, with Congress only getting to vote yes or no.

This wasn't a "Budget reducing" anything. It was an attempt to create a work around of the filibuster.
 
Interestingly, only 16 republicans voted for this. I think it is time for republicans to give up their claim of fiscal conservatism.

Its long since past time. Reagan proved beyond doubt that he was no Fiscal Conservative. Thus any Repub who claims they are a Ronald Reagan Conservative will never get my vote. Amazing how they have re-written history to make him appear greater then he was.
 
This wasn't a "Budget reducing" anything.

I didn't say budget reducing. The commission was supposed to investigate ways of reducing the deficit. That could include budget reductions, tax hikes, or a combination of the two. If the senators objected to the commission because they supported deficit spending during a recession, that's perfectly understandable and I could respect that. But Republicans opposed it because the commission might suggest tax hikes, and Democrats opposed it because the commission might suggest entitlement cuts. This is grossly irresponsible. We *have* to get the deficit under control in the long-term...and if those are both off-limits it's very difficult.

MrVicchio said:
It was an attempt to create a work around of the filibuster.

As I just mentioned, that wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Congress has lost its ability to govern in the last 20 years (and is constantly getting worse), due to stringent filibuster requirements.

I like Sen. Harkin's suggestion to have a cloture vote require 60 votes the first day, then 57 votes two days later, then 54 votes two days later, then 51 votes two days later. This would ensure that Congress would actually be able to debate the issue (which is what the filibuster is all about, ostensibly) but would allow them to move on with business once it had majority support. Alternatively, if we went back to the old system of requiring filibuster-supporting congressmen to actually filibuster, Mr. Smith-style, then it would simply become an endurance match and Congress would eventually be able to move on with its business once the opponents stopped talking.
 
Last edited:
Let's compare three states.

New York
California
Texas

So there we go.

New York, Cali, going broke.

Texas, sitting pretty.

Poor correlation, but what can i expect. Are you aware of the state budgets when the US economy is not in recession? Comparing a right to work state to non RTW states is questionable as well.

Care to answer any questions i have asked?
 
I am *very* concerned about what this illustrates about the dysfunction of our Congress. The Senate can no longer even bring itself to appoint a commission to PROPOSE ways of reducing the deficit. The Republicans have steadfastly refused to compromise on any tax increases, and some Democrats are worried that the commission will propose entitlement cuts. How can we ever hope to get our finances under control if these suggestions are both off-limits forever?

We need some serious reform of the legislative process itself, lest our Congress becomes as dysfunctional as the Italian Parliament. We need to either adopt Sen. Harkin's proposal to ease cloture requirements, or go back to the old Senate rules of requiring those in favor of a filibuster to actually filibuster.

And I'm in favor of even more commissions like these in lieu of the dysfunctional manner in which Congress usually handles financial matters. If it was up to me, we'd have technocrats writing the legislation for just about all economic issues, with Congress only getting to vote yes or no.

These are all valid points, and I'm strugging with my own hesitation toward this panel because I wholeheartedly support the creation of similar things in other areas, such as in Medicare/aid. I think I've come up with the reasons why:

1) The decisions on what types of procedures to cover and how much to pay for them would be made by apolitical experts, and
2) The decisions on what types of procedures to cover and how much to pay for them would affect the citizenry with little correlation to political position or ideology.

In the case of the proposed panel, I'm much less trusting because the people making the decisions will be self-interested politicians subject to the forces of their parties at large, and because there are many ways to cut spending or raise taxes that would disproportionately harm one group over another.

If there were a way to impanel a group of experts that would be as apolitical as possible (maybe including some former legislatures) that would propose a few sets of recommendations, I would be much more supportive.

Another note:

As bad as some of you might see the rejection of this panel as being, it could very well be a good thing. Imagine that the panel is enacted and is seated with 10 Democrats and 8 Republicans. The recommendations aren't released until after the Nov. elections, so Congress spends the next 10 months ignoring the problem of the deficit simply because they've delegated it to someone else to deal with. The elections happen and the Republicans pick up a handful of seats due to disillusionment among the Democrat base, making the political stakes that much higher. With that background, I can very easily see the Democrats coming forward with a proposal that would be very friendly to their base in order to get them back, with the Republicans on the panel being stridently opposed in order to try to highlight the partisanship.

The end result is that we'll have wasted 10 months, increased the rancor in DC, gotten absolutely nothing passed, and will have turned Congress and the public off of the idea of creating panels like this that could be so useful in other scenarios.
 
Poor correlation, but what can i expect. Are you aware of the state budgets when the US economy is not in recession? Comparing a right to work state to non RTW states is questionable as well.

Care to answer any questions i have asked?

No, not really. I don't see the point. All you'll do is dodge, obfuscate and ignore what doesn't fit your preconceived notion that higher taxes = good, lower taxes = rich get richer.

The sign of a good healthy state budget is one that can survive in hard economic times. And as for the "RTW" issue, ya think just MAYBE that might be part of the PROBLEM in those states? Somehow, I doubt you'd admit that.
 
No, not really. I don't see the point. All you'll do is dodge, obfuscate and ignore what doesn't fit your preconceived notion that higher taxes = good, lower taxes = rich get richer.

Not my opinion at all. You see, i am not a political hack unlike you and your brethren. Higher taxes = bad, lower taxes = good. However..... Lower taxes and higher spending during non recession years = bad. Lower taxes = bad when you are fighting a mighty expensive war. Higher taxes = good when your debt ceiling is constantly being raised.

But lets get back to the questions i have posed to you. Why is it you have neglected to answer them?

The sign of a good healthy state budget is one that can survive in hard economic times. And as for the "RTW" issue, ya think just MAYBE that might be part of the PROBLEM in those states? Somehow, I doubt you'd admit that.

Not sure about Texas, but the quality of construction in Florida (RTW) is about as bad as i have ever seen. So much so, that firms/government frequently hire in union companies from Chicago to meet contractual time constraints.
 
Not my opinion at all. You see, i am not a political hack unlike you and your brethren. Higher taxes = bad, lower taxes = good. However..... Lower taxes and higher spending during non recession years = bad. Lower taxes = bad when you are fighting a mighty expensive war. Higher taxes = good when your debt ceiling is constantly being raised.

GB, you are a hack. You're also economically impaired. You claim you are enlightened, yet you ignore that lower taxes generates higher revenues. Higher taxes may give a short term boost but are long term detrimental.
But lets get back to the questions i have posed to you. Why is it you have neglected to answer them?
It's not negligence, it's choice. You're playing the bumper sticker logic game. I.E. populations grew over 20 years, so that is the OBVIOUS source of the added revenue, not the lower tax induced economic activity.

The typical answer of a dishonest person, which you are.

Not sure about Texas, but the quality of construction in Florida (RTW) is about as bad as i have ever seen. So much so, that firms/government frequently hire in union companies from Chicago to meet contractual time constraints.

That's great, I don't recall bringing Florida into the discussion.
 
GB, you are a hack. You're also economically impaired. You claim you are enlightened, yet you ignore that lower taxes generates higher revenues. Higher taxes may give a short term boost but are long term detrimental.

I think his point is that neither extreme works, so we have to reach a middleground that balances individual interests with the need for revenue and economic growth.

Neither a 99% tax nor a 1% tax would raise much money.
 
GB, you are a hack. You're also economically impaired. You claim you are enlightened, yet you ignore that lower taxes generates higher revenues. Higher taxes may give a short term boost but are long term detrimental.

Even reagan had 50% tax for high earners thru most of his terms. As far as low taxes..umm we do have low taxes when compared to most of our past rates. 39.6% is still lower then it was save only a few yrs here and there. Taxes aren't really a issue. Living within ones means is the trouble. Be it a Govt or a person...
 
gosh, i wonder why FORTY PERCENT of the party in power voted to KILL their president's top domestic priority coming out of MA

what, oh what, could the trouble(s) be?
 
GB, you are a hack.

Really? How so? Is it because i call out those who are so entrenched in ideology, that they fail to consider the circumstances of the situation?

You're also economically impaired.

Coming from you, i will take that as a compliment.... You do not even understand the supply side underpinnings of which you claim to represent.
 
You do not even understand the supply side underpinnings of which you claim to represent.

Nor do Repubs understand the failure of Supplyside economics. DEMAND drives a economy not SUPPLY.
 
Nor do Repubs understand the failure of Supplyside economics. DEMAND drives a economy not SUPPLY.

It is not as though supply side economics have failed; policy makers with a one track mind who attempt to have a one size fits all approach to economic policy are the ones who have failed. In certain situations, supply side economic policy can be a powerful tool in combating stagflation scenarios or instances where demand pull inflation is a reality.

Either way, mrv is out of his league.
 
Back
Top Bottom