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Thread: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

  1. #131
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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Okay, but that illustrates my point, which is that military spending is based on what's perceived as being necessary. Note that the bases were closed starting in 1989 and 1991 - right after the Cold War had ended. They were no longer seen as serving a purpose.


    But that is not the kind of thing that Reagan spent on:
    Significantly, the Reagan military budget was increasingly "weapons- driven," meaning that it devoted a larger and larger share of budget authority to "investment" (weapons procurement, research and development, military construction, warhead production), as opposed to "consumption" (operations and maintenance, personnel, and other miscellaneous) functions.
    Military and Social Spending

    Note that the article (written in 1986) is actually critical of Reagan. It also states that:

    After securing congressional acquiescence in early 1981 to modest cuts in that program, it moved in May of that year to "reform" social security drastically. If enacted, its proposals-which included immediate 40 percent benefit reductions for early retirees, a roughly one-third reduction in disability benefits, and a variety of caps and changes in the calculation and adjustment of benefit levels-would have amounted to a 20 percent cut in the overall program, or about $200 billion over the 1982-90 period. But the proposals generated a storm of resistance (reflected in a 96-0 vote against them in the Senate), and the Administration backed away, with Reagan promising to hold off on any further suggestions until he received the report of the bipartisan National Com- mission on Social Security Reform due at the end of 1982. Nevertheless, in May 1982 the Administration endorsed a Senate proposal for $4o billion in benefits cuts over FY 1983-85. This too was beaten back.
    Overall, the Administration sought 60 percent cuts in the discretionary grant programs closely associated with the Great Society, and roughly 30 percent cuts in low-income assistance payments. With most of the action taking place in 1981, Congress provided it with three-quarters of what was sought on the first group of programs and about a third of what was sought on the second.
    In other words, Reagan did not get the spending cuts that he wanted.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Okay, but that illustrates my point, which is that military spending is based on what's perceived as being necessary. Note that the bases were closed starting in 1989 and 1991 - right after the Cold War had ended. They were no longer seen as serving a purpose.


    But that is not the kind of thing that Reagan spent on:


    Military and Social Spending

    Note that the article (written in 1986) is actually critical of Reagan. It also states that:





    In other words, Reagan did not get the spending cuts that he wanted.
    What you are not understanding is that war is largely economic. It's about a limited supply of men and machines and fuel. Further, to find examples of economics driving war, look at for example WW2, where resource rich ares where subject to invasion.

    Another thing to realize is that the base closure commission and the bases closed did not reduce readiness by any significant amount, while providing for significant savings. It is important to realize that if you throw money at the military, it will spend it, frequently without improving ability. We used to fly heavy the last week of each month as we tried to use our fuel allowance, because if you did not use it, it was subject to going down. "Cross country" flights where common and encouraged of our pilots to burn fuel, with out pilots using them to visit places they wanted to go for a weekend. Hell, when bad weather made it unlikely we would use all our fuel allowance, pilots where encouraged to vent fuel before landing. I firmly believe we could trim the DoD budget by 10 % without a significant loss in readiness. The pentagon and DoD would throw a fit, then scramble and figure out how to make it work, and they have some incredibly bright people there.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  3. #133
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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What you are not understanding is that war is largely economic. It's about a limited supply of men and machines and fuel. Further, to find examples of economics driving war, look at for example WW2, where resource rich ares where subject to invasion.
    Except that such concerns have absolutely nothing to do with deficits, and are instead about fighting at maximum capability.

    OT, but this is like the 5th time I've seen you use "where" instead of "were".

    Another thing to realize is that the base closure commission and the bases closed did not reduce readiness by any significant amount, while providing for significant savings. It is important to realize that if you throw money at the military, it will spend it, frequently without improving ability. We used to fly heavy the last week of each month as we tried to use our fuel allowance, because if you did not use it, it was subject to going down. "Cross country" flights where common and encouraged of our pilots to burn fuel, with out pilots using them to visit places they wanted to go for a weekend. Hell, when bad weather made it unlikely we would use all our fuel allowance, pilots where encouraged to vent fuel before landing. I firmly believe we could trim the DoD budget by 10 % without a significant loss in readiness. The pentagon and DoD would throw a fit, then scramble and figure out how to make it work, and they have some incredibly bright people there.
    Okay, and I'm not going to ignore that Reagan, along with every other president in recent history, did not improve that. But as I already pointed out, most of the military spending increases under Reagan were on weaponry rather than the things you are mentioning.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post
    I too, I find it interesting that more democrats vote yes for this bill then republicans.
    Because hating the debt is only a political tool to the tax and spenders.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post

    Okay, and I'm not going to ignore that Reagan, along with every other president in recent history, did not improve that. But as I already pointed out, most of the military spending increases under Reagan were on weaponry rather than the things you are mentioning.
    Actually, it has improved. Things like the base closure commission improved the military. Obama is, instead of building new ships, retrofitting older ships bringing them up to modern standards at a large savings, and so on. Reagan threw money at the military, presidents since, following Bush the elders lead, have went more for efficiency and a better overall force.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Because hating the debt is only a political tool to the tax and spenders.
    It seems more like fiscal conservatism is only a slogan, not a real belief among those on the right.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It seems more like fiscal conservatism is only a slogan, not a real belief among those on the right.
    Well obvious people believe it's our core value since we get punished for not following it. But you guys aren't expected to save the taxpayer one red cent, so tax and spend is expected.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Actually, it has improved. Things like the base closure commission improved the military. Obama is, instead of building new ships, retrofitting older ships bringing them up to modern standards at a large savings, and so on. Reagan threw money at the military, presidents since, following Bush the elders lead, have went more for efficiency and a better overall force.
    Okay, and that's great for the guys who came after him. But as I already said, the actual increase in military spending under Reagan was not just "throwing money" at stuff. Here's the quote again:

    Significantly, the Reagan military budget was increasingly "weapons- driven," meaning that it devoted a larger and larger share of budget authority to "investment" (weapons procurement, research and development, military construction, warhead production), as opposed to "consumption" (operations and maintenance, personnel, and other miscellaneous) functions.
    It seems to me like much of the waste you were talking about falls in the latter, bolded category.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Okay, and that's great for the guys who came after him. But as I already said, the actual increase in military spending under Reagan was not just "throwing money" at stuff. Here's the quote again:



    It seems to me like much of the waste you were talking about falls in the latter, bolded category.
    Some but not all. The thing again though is you are responsible for the waste, even if you don't increase it. Bush took real steps to create a more efficient military, Reagan did not.

    Now, we are getting pretty well off topic here, but it's an interesting conversation. Realize as well that I am not saying Reagan did not make real, and important improvements to the military, which was not in great shape when he came into office. The problem is that, to my mind, he went to far with military spending and inflated the budget and deficit as a result.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Some but not all. The thing again though is you are responsible for the waste, even if you don't increase it. Bush took real steps to create a more efficient military, Reagan did not.

    Now, we are getting pretty well off topic here, but it's an interesting conversation. Realize as well that I am not saying Reagan did not make real, and important improvements to the military, which was not in great shape when he came into office. The problem is that, to my mind, he went to far with military spending and inflated the budget and deficit as a result.
    Reagan didn't have Army Transformation, he was fighting a cold war. It's totally different.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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