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Thread: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    He did not cut domestic spending to the degree he raised military spending. He has no claim as a fiscal conservative, since he did not act fiscally conservative.
    Liberals are still bitching to this day about how much harm was done from his huge domestic spending cuts. Frankly, you're being very biased here; you're basically saying that sure, he cut domestic spending more than any other president, but he should have cut it even more than that. The fact that he wasn't revolutionary in his spending cuts doesn't mean that they weren't huge.

    Let's go over this again: He put forth huge military spending increases- which are almost never shaped by fiscal policy concerns- which created large deficits. At the same time, he cut domestic spending so much that when the USSR fell and high military spending was no longer necessary, we eventually created a surplus. Fiscal conservatism almost never refers to militatary spending; only domestic spending, an area where Reagan was very fiscally conservative.

    But by all means, don't let that stop you from looking only at the surface so you can bash Reagan....

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Liberals are still bitching to this day about how much harm was done from his huge domestic spending cuts. Frankly, you're being very biased here; you're basically saying that sure, he cut domestic spending more than any other president, but he should have cut it even more than that. The fact that he wasn't revolutionary in his spending cuts doesn't mean that they weren't huge.

    Let's go over this again: He put forth huge military spending increases- which are almost never shaped by fiscal policy concerns- which created large deficits. At the same time, he cut domestic spending so much that when the USSR fell and high military spending was no longer necessary, we eventually created a surplus. Fiscal conservatism almost never refers to militatary spending; only domestic spending, an area where Reagan was very fiscally conservative.

    But by all means, don't let that stop you from looking only at the surface so you can bash Reagan....
    No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that to be fiscally responsible, you have to match spending increases with similar cuts. Reagan did not do this. Therefore he was not fiscally responsible. The whole copout that fiscal conservatives don't count the military is just that, a copout. You want to cut spending, except where you don't want to cut spending. To be fiscally responsible, you have to, at the end of the day, control the deficit, and Reagan failed to do this.
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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that to be fiscally responsible, you have to match spending increases with similar cuts. Reagan did not do this. Therefore he was not fiscally responsible. The whole copout that fiscal conservatives don't count the military is just that, a copout. You want to cut spending, except where you don't want to cut spending. To be fiscally responsible, you have to, at the end of the day, control the deficit, and Reagan failed to do this.
    Its a well known fact that the military is paid with monopoly money. That's why the majority of the military budget is never in the general budget.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Its a well known fact that the military is paid with monopoly money. That's why the majority of the military budget is never in the general budget.
    Uhhh....what in the.....

    The massive and multi-leveled entitlement programs....are what is funded by monopoly money.....megaprogman. We provide for the common defense first...then promote the general welfare. Your defense of this nation is well within tax receipt amounts, it is the colossal and runaway entitlements that take up the majority of tax receipts and are most responsible for the huge debt today.

    You have it correct, merely backwards.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that to be fiscally responsible, you have to match spending increases with similar cuts. Reagan did not do this. Therefore he was not fiscally responsible. The whole copout that fiscal conservatives don't count the military is just that, a copout. You want to cut spending, except where you don't want to cut spending. To be fiscally responsible, you have to, at the end of the day, control the deficit, and Reagan failed to do this.
    Yes it is a Cop out. Notice though that Repubs always want to exclude the bad aspects of their admins..Reagan cut spending!!!!! as long as you don't count the Military....Bush kept America safe!!!!! as long as you don't count 9-11....and so on. Why can't people just focus on the good Repubs do and only the bad Dems do....

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Interesting. SO you want to give republicans the benefit of the doubt, but criticize Obama's motives when he proposes something to reduce to growth of the deficit...
    Sorry my reply has been so late, I've been busy with college work.

    I am giving Republicans the benefit of the doubt, why should I judge them for voting no on a bill that Obama supported? It may have a label that promotes a responsible government, but if the legislation within the bill doesn't meet these guidelines then I don't expect the Republicans to vote yes. I criticize Obama for proposing garbage. I myself personally support some form of a public option in health care and I do think it's a right for all citizens, but Obama's health care bill is garbage and doesn't truly help anyone. I do my best to not blindly condemn or support legislation, but I do make judgments and stick to them.
    Last edited by digsbe; 01-28-10 at 01:42 PM.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    After reviewing the overall purpose of the panel as detailed by MCnoSpin (post #24, page 3), it's clear to me that Senate Republicans are still working along partician lines holding true to being the "Party of 'NO'" at all costs. It's shameful, IMO.

    Here it was a recommendation to form a commission - not a new branch of government, not hiring new people, but use members of Congress, evenly divided (8 Dems, 8 Reps -- accept for the 2 Presidential appointees which one would hope would be split evenly as well) to review government spending in order to reduce the deficit -- something Republicans have been complaining about since the Stimulas bill was passed - and yet Senate Republicans vote it down!?! Unreal!!!

    It's not like this commission would have had any powers to do anything. They'd simply be reviewing budget proposals and making recommendations where to trim the fat. That's it. Now, if Republics who voted against this commission had said there was already a mechanism in government to do what this commission would be tasked to do, I'd agree with their opposition. But that's not what's being said. Instead, they're more worried about the Democrats gaining more power (which I fail to see how formulating such a commission would translate to a power grab here except where the 2 Presidential appointees could help make a majority on the commission) than in doing the one thing they claim to be stewarts of - deficit control.

    Unreal!!!!

    If any Republican can explain to me how this commission would have been a threat to their power based, I'd really like to hear your argument. Otherwise, it's ridiculous for them not to approve such a commission that would stand to do more good than bad especially where being more fiscally responsible is concerned. I just don't get the rational behind voting nah against this commission. The opposition is going to have to explain this one to me.

    (Sidenote: Good thing for Executive Orders; looks like this commission will be started anyway, but dang! Did the President have to take such drastic measures? I mean, c'mon, folks! The man's trying to do the right thing here.)
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 01-28-10 at 02:45 PM.

  8. #108
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    Exclamation Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that to be fiscally responsible, you have to match spending increases with similar cuts. Reagan did not do this. Therefore he was not fiscally responsible. The whole copout that fiscal conservatives don't count the military is just that, a copout. You want to cut spending, except where you don't want to cut spending. To be fiscally responsible, you have to, at the end of the day, control the deficit, and Reagan failed to do this.
    I'm going to stop arguing with you now because you're completely working around the point and bringing up the same arguments over and over even when I point out their flaws. Just because you keep pushing forward the notion that the deficit is the only possible indicator of fiscal responsibility doensn't make it so. If Reagan was not fiscally responsible, then neither was any president in history, because no president cut domestic spending as much as he did. I am willing to bet that if he had cut domestic spending more - especially if it was so much, it actually eliminated the deficit - you'd today be bashing Reagan for not caring about the poor (note: most liberals are already doing this) enough to want to keep welfare programs. Not that he could have done this anyways, in the face of a Democratic congress.

    Military spending - I have brought this up several times, but it apparently hasn't been enough - has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility. Nobody who is sane has ever argued that reducing the deficit is even remotely as important as national security; defense policy is therefore formed solely formed based on the maximalization of security, with no regard for fiscal concerns.

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dav View Post
    Nobody who is sane has ever argued that reducing the deficit is even remotely as important as national security; defense policy is therefore formed solely formed based on the maximalization of security, with no regard for fiscal concerns.
    You seem to run around the argument. In regards to fiscal being conservative (fiscally), you have to be against spending. And if by chance there is a necessity... guess what? A true conservative would raise the tax revenues necessary to avoid a deficit.

    Although you did bring up an interesting point. No president has ever been fiscally conservative.
    It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.
    "Wealth of Nations," Book V, Chapter II, Part II, Article I, pg.911

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    Re: Senate says 'no' to federal debt commission Obama endorsed

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldenboy219 View Post
    You seem to run around the argument. In regards to fiscal being conservative (fiscally), you have to be against spending. And if by chance there is a necessity... guess what? A true conservative would raise the tax revenues necessary to avoid a deficit.
    No, tax raises are an explicitly un-conservative policy. You can make up your own definitions of conservatism all you want, but that's just the way it is. Fiscal conservatism is about low spending and low taxes.

    This being beside the point that tax raises don't necessarily mean more tax revenues in the first place.

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