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Thread: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL the hell there was.. Stop this revisionist crap. The Soviets were part of the Allies and key member. Without them the Allies would never have won. It was not the Allies and the Soviets, it was the Allies full stop and that included the UK, France, Poland at the start and later on the Soviets added and even later the US. There was other nations also btw.. governments in exile and so on, but the big wigs were the UK, France, USSR and the US.

    But yes Stalin was just as bad.. well in my view worse actually, than Hitler, but that does not change the fact that Hilter was used as a scapegoat by all the Allies.

    The Soviets blamed him and Nazi Germany for massacares they did for example. The Soviets killed the polish officers and blamed the Germans. The Soviets used KGB troops to kill normal troops who fled and blamed often the Germans for the deaths.

    The US and UK blamed Hitler and his cronies for the disappearance of art across Europe and then decades later they suddenly turn up in US or UK "ownership". While I have no doubt the Nazi's stole a buttload of art, it is also very evident that allied troops "liberated" some of that and took it home. The western Allies blamed the Germans for bombing their cities.. yes that was true, but they still got the blame when the Allies went and killed 10s of thousands in deliberately set fire storms in German cities. Sure it was war, but the Germans got the blame for their own fate, and the people who actually made the call to use such a diabolical weapon got off scot free.

    Or the modern myth that has been promoted since the war, that it was Hitler that basically started the eugenics programs with forced sterilizations, and targeted Jews or people looking like Jews for discrimination. No he did not, far from it. That came from the US and Sweden pretty much, but he gets all the blame despite the practices being used all the way up to the late 1970s among "Allied nations". We all cringe at the fact that handicapped and other undesirables were forced sterilized and even killed in Germany, but very few know that this was happening in the US, Sweden and other places long before Hitler even got to power.

    Sorry but Hitler gets blamed for many things, much of it fully justified, but some of it was in no way his fault or that of Nazi Germany.

    "Stop this revisionist crap."? I won't even touch that one.

    But The USSR may have been a key Allied member but it wasnt for the entire duration of the war and is therefore a seprate victor because it came to its own peace agreement with Germany seperate from the Allies.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxientius View Post
    "Scapegoat" is a term meaning "One that is made to bear the blame of others."
    You left part of it out. "one that is made to bear the blame of others, often innocent". If you can prove to me that Hitler was innocent, do it.

    Otherwise I would conclude that you are being a sophist.

    [ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat[/ame]
    Last edited by LiberalAvenger; 01-14-10 at 11:33 AM. Reason: dam cat

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL the hell there was.. Stop this revisionist crap. The Soviets were part of the Allies and key member. Without them the Allies would never have won. It was not the Allies and the Soviets, it was the Allies full stop and that included the UK, France, Poland at the start and later on the Soviets added and even later the US. There was other nations also btw.. governments in exile and so on, but the big wigs were the UK, France, USSR and the US.

    But yes Stalin was just as bad.. well in my view worse actually, than Hitler, but that does not change the fact that Hilter was used as a scapegoat by all the Allies.

    The Soviets blamed him and Nazi Germany for massacares they did for example. The Soviets killed the polish officers and blamed the Germans. The Soviets used KGB troops to kill normal troops who fled and blamed often the Germans for the deaths.

    The US and UK blamed Hitler and his cronies for the disappearance of art across Europe and then decades later they suddenly turn up in US or UK "ownership". While I have no doubt the Nazi's stole a buttload of art, it is also very evident that allied troops "liberated" some of that and took it home. The western Allies blamed the Germans for bombing their cities.. yes that was true, but they still got the blame when the Allies went and killed 10s of thousands in deliberately set fire storms in German cities. Sure it was war, but the Germans got the blame for their own fate, and the people who actually made the call to use such a diabolical weapon got off scot free.

    Or the modern myth that has been promoted since the war, that it was Hitler that basically started the eugenics programs with forced sterilizations, and targeted Jews or people looking like Jews for discrimination. No he did not, far from it. That came from the US and Sweden pretty much, but he gets all the blame despite the practices being used all the way up to the late 1970s among "Allied nations". We all cringe at the fact that handicapped and other undesirables were forced sterilized and even killed in Germany, but very few know that this was happening in the US, Sweden and other places long before Hitler even got to power.

    Sorry but Hitler gets blamed for many things, much of it fully justified, but some of it was in no way his fault or that of Nazi Germany.
    Somehow you think the Soviets and the US were one. Just because we fought the same enemy did not make it so. There were two distinct theatres of war. After the Germans were defeated many thought we should continue the war against the Soviets. We had our victory and they had theirs. The Soviets could have beaten Germany without our particpation, but we could not without theirs. During the war we were never friends with the Soviets. We used them like they used us.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    You left part of it out. "one that is made to bear the blame of others, often innocent". If you can prove to me that Hitler was innocent, do it.

    Otherwise I would conclude that you are being a sophist.
    "Often". "Often" meaning usually but not always. Therefore he doesnt need to be innocent to fit your definition.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Somehow you think the Soviets and the US were one. Just because we fought the same enemy did not make it so. There were two distinct theatres of war. After the Germans were defeated many thought we should continue the war against the Soviets. We had our victory and they had theirs. The Soviets could have beaten Germany without our particpation, but we could not without theirs. During the war we were never friends with the Soviets. We used them like they used us.
    Your point is incorrect. Though we fought on different fronts we were still allied in the war and therefore a united force fighting on two fronts.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxientius View Post
    "Often". "Often" meaning usually but not always. Therefore he doesnt need to be innocent to fit your definition.
    I say again, prove to me he was an innocent.

    You could always use an adjective to make what you say more clear. For example, an innocent scapegoat, or a guilty scapegoat. Which one would you use describing Hitler? Tell me.
    Last edited by LiberalAvenger; 01-14-10 at 11:37 AM.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalAvenger View Post
    I say again, prove to me he was an innocent.

    I literally just said he doesnt HAVE to be innocent. MOST scapegoats are. MOST meaning NOT ALL. Hitler is one of the few.

    And PeteEU has given several decent reasons Hitler is not fully to blame. Read his points.

    An adjective is not needed when the definition clearly states the context in which the word should be used.
    Last edited by Maxientius; 01-14-10 at 11:38 AM.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    LOL the hell there was.. Stop this revisionist crap. The Soviets were part of the Allies and key member. Without them the Allies would never have won. It was not the Allies and the Soviets, it was the Allies full stop and that included the UK, France, Poland at the start and later on the Soviets added and even later the US. There was other nations also btw.. governments in exile and so on, but the big wigs were the UK, France, USSR and the US.

    But yes Stalin was just as bad.. well in my view worse actually, than Hitler, but that does not change the fact that Hilter was used as a scapegoat by all the Allies.

    The Soviets blamed him and Nazi Germany for massacares they did for example. The Soviets killed the polish officers and blamed the Germans. The Soviets used KGB troops to kill normal troops who fled and blamed often the Germans for the deaths.

    The US and UK blamed Hitler and his cronies for the disappearance of art across Europe and then decades later they suddenly turn up in US or UK "ownership". While I have no doubt the Nazi's stole a buttload of art, it is also very evident that allied troops "liberated" some of that and took it home. The western Allies blamed the Germans for bombing their cities.. yes that was true, but they still got the blame when the Allies went and killed 10s of thousands in deliberately set fire storms in German cities. Sure it was war, but the Germans got the blame for their own fate, and the people who actually made the call to use such a diabolical weapon got off scot free.

    Or the modern myth that has been promoted since the war, that it was Hitler that basically started the eugenics programs with forced sterilizations, and targeted Jews or people looking like Jews for discrimination. No he did not, far from it. That came from the US and Sweden pretty much, but he gets all the blame despite the practices being used all the way up to the late 1970s among "Allied nations". We all cringe at the fact that handicapped and other undesirables were forced sterilized and even killed in Germany, but very few know that this was happening in the US, Sweden and other places long before Hitler even got to power.

    Sorry but Hitler gets blamed for many things, much of it fully justified, but some of it was in no way his fault or that of Nazi Germany.
    You said a mouthful but you offered no references for your assertions. Am I supposed to believe neo nazi propaganda. I offered a reference about eugenics and hitler in an earlier post. "Psychiatrists, Teh Men Behind Hitler" Check the link out.

    The book is well documented with actual nazi archives, btw.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxientius View Post

    I literally just said he doesnt HAVE to be innocent. MOST scapegoats are. MOST meaning NOT ALL. Hitler is one of the few.

    And PeteEU has given several decent reasons Hitler is not fully to blame. Read his points.

    An adjective is not needed when the definition clearly states the context in which the word should be used.
    Getting a little Clintonese there? Btw. I could understand you better if I were a mind reader.

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    Re: Oliver Stone: Hitler an easy scapegoat

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxientius View Post
    Your point is incorrect. Though we fought on different fronts we were still allied in the war and therefore a united force fighting on two fronts.
    We were not a united force. They were grabbing territory and we were liberating peoples.

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