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Thread: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia

    Murder of George Tiller - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    David Leach, publisher of Prayer & Action News, a magazine that opines that the killing of abortion providers would be justifiable homicide, told reporters that he and Roeder had met once in the late 1990s and that Roeder at that time had authored contributions to Leach's publication.[39][40][41] Leach published the Army of God manual, which advocates the killing of the providers of abortion and contains bomb-making instructions, in the January 1996 issue of his magazine.[42] A Kansas acquaintance of Roeder's, Regina Dinwiddie, told a reporter after Tiller's murder (speaking of Roeder), "I know that he believed in justifiable homicide." Dinwiddie, an anti-abortion militant featured in the 2000 HBO documentary Soldiers in the Army of God, added that she had observed Roeder in 1996 enter Kansas City Planned Parenthood's abortion clinic and ask to talk to the physician there; after staring at him for nearly a minute, Roeder said, "I’ve seen you now," before turning and walking away.[43]

    Roeder's former roommate of two years, Eddie Ebecher, who had met Roeder through the Freemen movement in the 1990s, told a reporter after Tiller's murder that he and Roeder had considered themselves members of the Army of God. Ebecher said Roeder was obsessed with Tiller and discussed killing him, but that Ebecher warned him not to do so. Ebecher, who went by the nom de guerre "Wolfgang Anacon," added that he believed Roeder held "high moral convictions in order to carry out this act. I feel that Scott had a burden for all the children being murdered."
    Roeder was an extremist nut who saw himself as part of a political and ideological force whose responsibility it was to stop abortionists. His activities in the past have been well documented by good journalism and the FBI.

    There is no denying that this guy was political. This was not an isolated incident.

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    You're trying to downplay what happened by bringing up Tiller's court cases regarding partial birth abortion, as if that some how mitigates his murder.
    I was giving a specific answer to a technical question. I was not offering opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    This was an act of domestic terrorist plain and simple. Tiller has been a target by these radical extremists for years and the FBI has been well involved.
    This was not an act of terrorism no mater how much you want it to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orius View Post
    No matter what he did that you think is morally wrong, there were other ways to challenge this. Killing him was not the answer.
    Please note the post in purple where I say the same thing

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Don't you see the problem with this statement? How can someone's intent be crystal clear?
    The circumstances surrounding the act make it so. If you owe me money and I kill you. There is nothing blurry about that. I killed you cause you owed me money. If you associate with terrorists who's goal is to promote a political agenda through intimidation & violence, and you kill an abortion provider in broad daylight and don't even try to hide who you are, there is nothing blurry about why you did it and what your goal was.

    This has nothing to do with my views on Islam. I'm just not convinced that this was a terrorist attack. It's obvious Osama is obsessed with Americans. He sees Americans as evil individuals, so he murders them. Any motivations he may have had beyond that are not readily ascertainable, which means, in a court of law, there is no justification for charging him with terrorism. That's all I'm saying.
    The different between this guy and Osama is that Osama managed to kill 3,000. This guy got caught after the first.
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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Oh, I'm sure I'll regret this, but just like watching a train wreck, it's hard to not watch this.

    Jerry, here you said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Dr. Tiller should have been tried and put to the needle, instead of an assassin's bullet, I'm sure we agree there also.
    Now, notice the word in bold. Since this is a semantical thread, I will define the word "assassinate" which is what is being described in your post:

    tr.v., -nat·ed, -nat·ing, -nates.
    • To murder (a prominent person) by surprise attack, as for political reasons.
    • To destroy or injure treacherously: assassinate a rival's character.

    assassinate: Definition from Answers.com
    Notice definition #1: to murder. Please tell us how that coordinates with this post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Sure, [Scott Roeder is]guilty of a crime on the level of a parking violation. That's all Dr. Tiller was worth.
    Please tell us how murder... extrapolated from you indicating that Dr. Tiller was assassinated is equivalent to that of a parking violation.

    Or was that just you speaking morally, not legally.
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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    This was not an act of terrorism no mater how much you want it to be.
    You have provided nothing to counter the evidence I posted indicating that he was part of domestic terrorist activities, just your say so. The onus is on you to prove otherwise. He was part of the "Army of God" and saw himself as the force to bring political change in world of abortion. He openly supported the same groups that are responsible for clinic bombings and death threats.

    This was politically motivated no matter how much you don't want it to be.

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Or was that just you speaking morally, not legally.
    Who knows? He changes what he says on the fly.

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I do not think it was acceptable to execute Dr. Tiller and I've specifically stated so already.
    Tiller was not executed, he was murdered. There is a large, unsubtle distinction there.
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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You view it as a medical procedure I view it as the act of taking an innocent human life. And he viewed abortion especially late term abortion as act of taking an innocent life. SO trying to call it a medical procedure doesn't fly.
    Who cares what you view it as. Your view is not the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage
    Roeder only killed one man nor did he blow up anything, so trying to call it terrorism is absurd.
    Terrorism is not defined by how many people are killed or what method they use to kill. Were the guys who beheaded Daniel Pearl terrorists? Of course they were.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage
    What if the law said that they were not going to do anything regardless what ever evidence you gave them and a civilian did do something about it? Would A) condemn the man who took out that serial killer even though that serial killer being left alone would have resulted in more lives being taken or do you B) applaud the civilian for taking out the serial killer because a dead serial killer means that he will no longer be able to take another innocent human life?
    A. We are a nation of laws, and a democratic society. If you don't like the law, get it changed. You have no right to commit acts of vigilantism when the government (which was elected by the people, or appointed by elected officials) has decided that something is not illegal.
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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Please tell us how murder... extrapolated from you indicating that Dr. Tiller was assassinated is equivalent to that of a parking violation.
    My claim was to balance the accusation of 'terrorist'.

    I was not speaking legally or morally, I was fighting hyperbolic rhetoric with hyperbolic rhetoric; illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

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    Re: Trial to Begin in Abortion-Doctor Killing

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Tiller was not executed, he was murdered. There is a large, unsubtle distinction there.
    "Execute" was danarhea's word, post 128.

    So you accept that I object to the method Dr. Tiller's life came to an end and now move on to correct my word usage.

    Ok, I accept your correction, that seems only fair as you accepted my argument and dropped any notion that I support vigilantism.
    Last edited by Jerry; 01-11-10 at 12:55 PM.

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