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New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

Homosexuals are only trying to justify and their choice to be homosexual because they can't deal with reality.

After all the whole I was born this way is and always has been a lie.

I used to believe that, but I also believe that Transexuals as a whole, are genetically pre-disposed.

However, that doesn't mean every homosexual is so by birth, there is a lot more then just "genetic pre-disposition". Which is a stance neither side seems to like.
 
Your collective inability to read is amazing. My thoughts are reality based.

The Gay Gene?

On July 15, 1993, National Public Radio (NPR) made a dramatic announcement on stations across the country: Was a team of scientists at the National Institutes of Health on the trail of a gene that causes homosexuality? Their report would be published the next day in Science, one of the two most prestigious scientific research journals in the world.

The discussion that followed explained for the listening public the implications of these findings for social attitudes toward homosexuality and for public policy concerning it. Science was on the verge of proving what many had long argued: that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeable-a normal and commonplace variant of human nature. In the light of these findings, surely only the bigoted or ignorant could condemn it in any way.

Shortly after the announcement, amidst a well-orchestrated blizzard of press discussions, there ensued the watershed legal battle over "Proposition 2" in Colorado. (This popularly enacted legislation precluded making sexual orientation the basis of "privileged class" minority status, a status conferred previously only on the basis of immutable factors such as race.)

Among the many crucial issues raised by the legislation was the question as to whether homosexuality was indeed normal, innate and unchangeable. One prominent researcher testified to the court, "I am 99.5% certain that homosexuality is genetic." But this personal opinion was widely misunderstood as "homosexuality is 99.5% genetic," implying that research had demonstrated this. Certainly, that was the message promulgated by NPR's report on the recent research, and by all the discussions that followed. In a few weeks, Newsweek would emblazon across its cover the phrase that would stick in the public mind as the final truth about homosexuality: "Gay Gene?"

Of course, just near the end of the NPR discussion, certain necessary caveats were fleetingly added. But only an expert knew what they meant- that the research actually showed nothing whatever in the way of what was being discussed. The vast majority of listeners would think that homosexuality had been all but conclusively proven to be "genetic." But the real question is whether or not there is such a "gay gene."

In fact, there is not, and the research being promoted as proving that there is provides no supporting evidence. How can this be? In order to understand what is really going on, one needs to understand some little- known features of the emerging study of behavioral genetics (much subtler than the genetics of simple, "Mendelian" traits such as eye color).

When it comes to questions of the genetics of any behavior-homosexuality included-all of the following statements are likely to be at least roughly true:


Such and such a behavior "is genetic";
There are no genes that produce the behavior;
The genes associated with the behavior are found on such and such a chromosome;
The behavior is significantly heritable;
The behavior is not inherited.
The scientific distinctions that make these seeming contradictions perfectly reasonable and consistent seem completely misunderstood by the media who report on them.
For example, in response to the "gay gene" research, the Wall Street Journal headlined their report (which appeared the next day), "Research Points Toward a Gay Gene."[2] A subheading of the Journal article stated, "Normal Variation"-leaving the casual reader with the impression that the research led to this conclusion. It did not, nor could it have. The subhead alluded to nothing more than the chief researcher's personal, unsubstantiated opinion that homosexuality, as he put it, "is a normal variant of human behavior." Even the New York Times, in its more moderate front-page article, "Report Suggests Homosexuality is Linked to Genes," noted that other researchers warned against over-interpreting the work, "or taking it to mean anything as simplistic as that the 'gay gene' had been found."
 
Your collective inability to read is amazing. My thoughts are reality based.

The Gay Gene?

So you believe it because some guy wrote a book in '96, and it said what you wanted it to? What about the fact even if being gay is not genetic, it may still be something beyond a persons control? What about the legitimate studies which show that orientation is determined very early in life and does not appear to change? What about the overwhelming body of evidence that says that orientation is not a choice? Oh wait, all that is inconvenient, so you will just dismiss it.
 
You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.
 
You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.

Stop, breath, use punctuation.

Your "respected Doctor" is one guy, and one with an agenda at that. He does not trump all the loads of data on the subject.
 
You posted a source that suggested children are at a greater risk of being molested by homosexuals than by heterosexuals. Either you are acknowledging that is bull, or you are saying you don't care that children wil be molested by homosexual couples in civil unions. Which is it?



Look at argument 1 in the first thread you quoted.

Now do you want me to go through all the counterarguments on that issue. Such as the fact that none of the countries that have legalized same sex marriage have legalized polygamy, or all the differences between polygamy and same sex marriage that make them incomparable, or the fact that there is evidence supporting the societal benefits of same sex marriage but not polygamous marriages? Frankly, when you argue both sides of an issue, you know how to destroy the irrational arguments.
he won't. he can't argue with facts.
 
So you believe it because some guy wrote a book in '96, and it said what you wanted it to? What about the fact even if being gay is not genetic, it may still be something beyond a persons control? What about the legitimate studies which show that orientation is determined very early in life and does not appear to change? What about the overwhelming body of evidence that says that orientation is not a choice? Oh wait, all that is inconvenient, so you will just dismiss it.

Funny thing about it, too, is that the article reads more like an editorial than any fact based reporting.

Pretty much, the gist of the article is "I know the scientific community says all these other things but they're just wrong because I don't like what their findings say."

Yeah, not really buying into that. Further, it's also of note that he is one of NARTH's most valued professional witnesses. That tells me all I need to know right there.
 
Funny thing about it, too, is that the article reads more like an editorial than any fact based reporting.

Pretty much, the gist of the article is "I know the scientific community says all these other things but they're just wrong because I don't like what their findings say."

Yeah, not really buying into that. Further, it's also of note that he is one of NARTH's most valued professional witnesses. That tells me all I need to know right there.

It's about the forth time he has used that link and quote. CC has demolished it at least once, but he keeps bringing back the exact same link/quote.
 
Funny thing about it, too, is that the article reads more like an editorial than any fact based reporting.

Pretty much, the gist of the article is "I know the scientific community says all these other things but they're just wrong because I don't like what their findings say."

Yeah, not really buying into that. Further, it's also of note that he is one of NARTH's most valued professional witnesses. That tells me all I need to know right there.
i can't find any university information on the guy.
 
i can't find any university information on the guy.

I know, and most everything that references calls him an "ex gay movement pundit".

In other words, he is a pariah in the psychology field.
 
You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.
respected by whom?
 
Murder is an innate trait people act upon. Does that make it right?

I'm not equating murder to homosexuality, rather I'm pointing out that even IF it is a genetic pre-disposition... you cannot deny that one must CHOOSE to act on said desires.

The real question is, is it RIGHT to do so, and further more should society encourage such.
 
Murder is an innate trait people act upon. Does that make it right?

Murder is an innate trait? Where do you get that?

I'm not equating murder to homosexuality, rather I'm pointing out that even IF it is a genetic pre-disposition... you cannot deny that one must CHOOSE to act on said desires.

Good. You understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Many do not.

The real question is, is it RIGHT to do so, and further more should society encourage such.

Your first question in this sentence is the problem with the anti-GM argument. Whether or not it is "right" is irrelevant because that is a value judgment. Is it "right" to allow women to vote? Is it "right" to allow blacks to marry whites? Is it "right" to allow Jews to own businesses? These are all value judgments and illogical when leading to the second part of your question. That part, "should society encourage such" could be answered by answering this question: does it benefit society? One first needs to define benefits to society before answering this question, however.
 
You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.

You're a conservative who only believes what he is told and ignores any valid research that proves him wrong, simply because it is inconvenient to his invalid conservative position.

Now that we have dispensed with the ridiculous partisan hackery, do you have anything of substance and credibility to add to this thread?
 
So you believe it because some guy wrote a book in '96, and it said what you wanted it to? What about the fact even if being gay is not genetic, it may still be something beyond a persons control? What about the legitimate studies which show that orientation is determined very early in life and does not appear to change? What about the overwhelming body of evidence that says that orientation is not a choice? Oh wait, all that is inconvenient, so you will just dismiss it.

This has nothing to do with what one guy has claimed.

Over and over and over again from every single case it has been proven a genetic link to homosexuality has not been found. You must accept it on faith to believe there is since it has zero scientific basis.

We've heard every ridiculous argument to the claim because homosexuality has been found in history it must be genetic to studies on flies which prove nothing to a twin study which couldn't even find a link between twins 50% of the time.

You want to continue down this fantasy road go right ahead but there is zero hard scientific data to support this faith based theory of yours.
 
Murder is an innate trait? Where do you get that?
Humans are by nature, violent creatures. That's what I was trying to get at...

Good. You understand the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior. Many do not.
Of course I do.
:2razz:



Your first question in this sentence is the problem with the anti-GM argument. Whether or not it is "right" is irrelevant because that is a value judgment. Is it "right" to allow women to vote? Is it "right" to allow blacks to marry whites? Is it "right" to allow Jews to own businesses? These are all value judgments and illogical when leading to the second part of your question. That part, "should society encourage such" could be answered by answering this question: does it benefit society? One first needs to define benefits to society before answering this question, however.


Many things do not benefit society, yet we allow them.

Smoking holds ZERO benefits. As does Alcohol consumption. Illegal Drug Use (which many want to make legal for example).

The Gay issue isn't one of benefits, it's one of emotion. Both sides have valid points, both sides get carried away.
 
Smoking holds ZERO benefits. As does Alcohol consumption. Illegal Drug Use (which many want to make legal for example).

The Gay issue isn't one of benefits, it's one of emotion. Both sides have valid points, both sides get carried away.

Hey, don't knock alcohol consumption. It has on many, many occasions helped get me laid.

Other than that I agree with ya. :mrgreen:
 
Murder is an innate trait people act upon. Does that make it right?

No

I'm not equating murder to homosexuality, rather I'm pointing out that even IF it is a genetic pre-disposition... you cannot deny that one must CHOOSE to act on said desires.

Then by the same token, if you believe that homosexuality is a choice, then you must also believe that heterosexuality is, too. After all, if homosexuals are, in your words, choosing "to act on said desires", then so are heterosexuals.

The real question is, is it RIGHT to do so, and further more should society encourage such.

If that's the question, it's been answered already through observation and numerous unbiased scientific studies. Yes, it is indeed right to act on homosexual desires with a consenting partner. Yes, homosexuality is entirely normal, natural, and acceptable. Yes, society should encourage life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and if that means shacking up with a member of the same sex, have at it.
 
Hey, don't knock alcohol consumption. It has on many, many occasions helped get me laid.

Other than that I agree with ya. :mrgreen:

I don't know if your getting laid is a benefit to society.... :2razz:
 
I don't appreciate being called ignorant OR Stupid, and CC thanking you is out of line. Do your job MODERATOR.

Or is it okay now to call others ignorant and stupid for not agreeing with one now?

Hey, it's not my fault CC is ignorant to the fact that Gay Marriage WILL lead to Polygamy, and you just can't cure that kinda stupid.

Oh boo-****ing-hoo.

If you didn't make ignorant and stupid posts and then turn around and confess that your mind will not be swayed from the ignorant and stupid things you say, then people would not be so inclined to transfer the ignorant and stupid qualities of your words to the owner of the mouth that speaks them.
 
Humans are by nature, violent creatures. That's what I was trying to get at...

OK, violence... a lot different than murder, but I'll accept that. Again, there is a difference between an innate quality and the acting on that quality. Seems like you understand that.

Of course I do.
:2razz:

I spend scores of posts trying to teach a few posters the difference. They STILL didn't get it. :doh






Many things do not benefit society, yet we allow them.

Smoking holds ZERO benefits. As does Alcohol consumption. Illegal Drug Use (which many want to make legal for example).

The Gay issue isn't one of benefits, it's one of emotion. Both sides have valid points, both sides get carried away.

I disagree. It is one of benefits. We are looking at comparison's here. The issue is that straight marriage is legal and gay marriage is not... yet gay marriage has all the benefits to the individual, the children, society, and the government that straight marriage does. This is why I argue from a logic position. It is illogical to have one and deny the other. There is no reasons OTHER than emotion to do that. If there is one, I haven't seen or heard it.
 
OK, violence... a lot different than murder, but I'll accept that. Again, there is a difference between an innate quality and the acting on that quality. Seems like you understand that.

Despite my reputation, I am not that bullheaded ;)

I spend scores of posts trying to teach a few posters the difference. They STILL didn't get it. :doh
I think many "get it" they just refuse to compromise in their beliefs to admit it.







I disagree. It is one of benefits. We are looking at comparison's here. The issue is that straight marriage is legal and gay marriage is not... yet gay marriage has all the benefits to the individual, the children, society, and the government that straight marriage does. This is why I argue from a logic position. It is illogical to have one and deny the other. There is no reasons OTHER than emotion to do that. If there is one, I haven't seen or heard it.

There are reasons not to do it. The behavior is historically considered deviant. Religious beliefs say they are bad for society. Two men, nor two women cannot reproduce on their own.
 
Oh boo-****ing-hoo.

If you didn't make ignorant and stupid posts and then turn around and confess that your mind will not be swayed from the ignorant and stupid things you say, then people would not be so inclined to transfer the ignorant and stupid qualities of your words to the owner of the mouth that speaks them.

Just because I don't embrace all things homosexual as being sunshine and lollipops does not make my stance stupid or ignorant.
 
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