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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    Both have been and are oppressed social groups - it is more offensive to say that equality is merely an issue of race.

    I am not saying homosexuals are a race, I am saying the arguments used then are the same used now.
    No, they are not. A black man can't marry a man. A white man can't marry a man. A gay man can't marry a man, and a straight man can't marry a man.

    There is no discrimination in that. The definition of marriage simply is what it is.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    No, they are not. A black man can't marry a man. A white man can't marry a man. A gay man can't marry a man, and a straight man can't marry a man.

    There is no discrimination in that. The definition of marriage simply is what it is.
    Pre Loving v. Virginia: A black man can't marry a white woman. A white man cannot marry a black woman. There is no discrimination in that. The definition of marriage simply is what it is.

    Compare that to your statement and any person can see that there *is* inherent discrimination - unless you also favor anti-miscegenation law.
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    Pre Loving v. Virginia: A black man can't marry a white woman. A white man cannot marry a black woman. There is no discrimination in that. The definition of marriage simply is what it is.

    Compare that to your statement and any person can see that there *is* inherent discrimination - unless you also favor anti-miscegenation law.
    Again, dreadfully wrong. The err in the Virginia ruling is obviously steeped in racism and is wrong in every way. The New Jersey ruling is simply to maintain the definition of what marriage is and always has been, and it is based in simple first-grade common sense.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Again, dreadfully wrong. The err in the Virginia ruling is obviously steeped in racism and is wrong in every way. The New Jersey ruling is simply to maintain the definition of what marriage is and always has been, and it is based in simple first-grade common sense.
    Appeal to tradition is quite a dreadful tactic, furthermore marriage is not the "first-grade common sense" that you make it out to be.

    Marriage, at its heart, is an exchange of property. Not some mystical declaration of love or what not, merely a social construct of a similar nature to buying a pair of sunglasses. In the old days, the property being exchanged was in fact the women - hence dowrys, the "giving away" part of the ceremony, etc.

    If you are going to argue "its the way its always been", then get consistent and support women being treated like chattel.
    Last edited by Warspite; 01-08-10 at 01:56 PM.
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    Again, dreadfully wrong. The err in the Virginia ruling is obviously steeped in racism and is wrong in every way. The New Jersey ruling is simply to maintain the definition of what marriage is and always has been, and it is based in simple first-grade common sense.
    By the way, the fact you thought Loving v. Virginia affirmed anti-miscegenation legislation obviously means you haven't read the ruling and don't understand why it is applicable to this situation.
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Wrong again. It was not a class of people. It was a race of people.



    You really need to read it.

    Separate but Equal: Segregation in the Public Schools

    It came from Brown vs the Board of Education.


    You are dishonestly trying to expand its meaning to include something it never did. This is exactly the kind of thing I've been talking about over and over again. Pro gay marriage advocates trying to compare marriage to race.

    Its dishonest and cannot be proven.

    You are obviously not a Constitutional law scholar. The Supreme Court always refers to a "class" of people defined by characteristics such as race, gender, sexual orientation, etc when addressing issues of equal protection.

    Yes...the philosophy of "Separate but equal" originated out of Brown v. Board of education...but it wasn't limited to issues of "race" any more than it was limited to issues involving "schools". The doctrine of "separate but equal" became the lynchpin of revisions in civil rights and remains an active consideration in equal protection analysis today....which applies to all analysis..not just those involving race.


    Sorry...its not dishonest...its the facts.
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    Inequality of a different degree is still inequality.



    I don't care what the churches have to say in regards to the issue, nor should you. Legalism is not a spiritual matter, just as spiritual matters are not legal matters.

    I don't want to force churches to marry same sex couples; quite the contrary, I'd rather enforce complete laicity on the issue and abolish marriage as a legal institution.
    It too bad you don't see the relationship of the church to this topic. Marriage to a high percentage of people is a religious ceremony. If you can't include this aspect in your thinking, maybe you should leave the subject be altogether. Frankly the world in general doesn't care about your thoughts on the matter, but they do care about what religious people think. Their thought are part of and affecting this debate, but you individual thoughts are not. Your dismissive nature undermines your credibility in this discussion, and I encourage you to reconsider.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    It too bad you don't see the relationship of the church to this topic. Marriage to a high percentage of people is a religious ceremony. If you can't include this aspect in your thinking, maybe you should leave the subject be altogether. Frankly the world in general doesn't care about your thoughts on the matter, but they do care about what religious people think. Their thought are part of and affecting this debate, but you individual thoughts are not. Your dismissive nature undermines your credibility in this discussion, and I encourage you to reconsider.
    I am dissmisive of the church's opinion because I uphold separation of church and state as a key tenet of a successful democratic republic. This whole marriage issue is demonstrative of precisely why this is so - marriage should be part of the religious sphere, civil unions part of the legal. It's the most equitable way.
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Warspite View Post
    I am dissmisive of the church's opinion because I uphold separation of church and state as a key tenet of a successful democratic republic. This whole marriage issue is demonstrative of precisely why this is so - marriage should be part of the religious sphere, civil unions part of the legal. It's the most equitable way.
    Separation is irrelevant here, the church is part of the debate whether you like it or not. You can't dismiss their words or actions.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    To the Open-Minded Folks: The far-right partisans in these same-sex marriage threads are never going to get it.

    The Prop 8 federal court case, Perry v Arnold Schwarzenegger, starts on Monday. The judge is going to allow it to be streamed on youtube. Olson and Boise believe the case will go before the Supreme Court within 2 years. Proposition 8 violates the 14th Amendment and should be struck down. How that will effect laws in other states--we'll have to wait and see.

    I believe it was Scalia who stated that gay marriage rights best chance would be with a strong equal protection case.

    What makes this case unique is that there are 18,000 legally married same-sex couples in California. The Unmarried same-sex couples are now barred from getting a marriage license because of a ballot measure. The amended California constitution is now in violation of the 14th Amendment--equal protection under the law.

    Although a majority of Californians voted in favor of Prop 8, the will of the majority can not trample the rights of the minority.

    Ultimately, same-sex marriage and gay rights will not be decided by the people or the legislature (New Jersey) as they both bend to subjective prejudices and fears. SCOTUS, right of center, strict constructionists will bend the country to the will of its constitution and right-wing partisans won't be able to call it judicial activism.

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