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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

  1. #1771
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I posted a neat little article for you to read on a three way in I think it was the Netherlands? Yeah, try reading it.
    You must have been talking to someone else. I have never heard of it. Post it again.

    Name the arguments, change homosexual to polygamous and there you go.

    Those are exceptions, not the rule. Not all three or four party relationships have the same faults or benefits. It's not your place to judge what works for others.

    You set a very high bar, and demand it be crossed or you will dismiss the argument. That's fine, be my guest. Not you, Not CC, nor anyone else has been able to alter the simple fact that the legal arguments for Same Sex Marriage equally apply to Polygamy. You can demand "peer reviewed" all you want... That doesn't change a thing.
    Wrong.

    Pluralistic marriages are difficult to sustain. Given that it is hard enough for two people to stay together, imagine how much hard it is for three or four? Also, it is a financial strain. Historically only the wealthy have had polygamous marriages. Third, it creates competition among spouses. Each one is vying for their children to receive the majority of attention from the father. Fourth, it causes sons to be kicked out of the family. As the father can simply remarry younger wives as he gets tired with his older ones, he has to remove the competition that might be vying for the younger females. That usually means he kicks out his own sons. That is a trend that has been observed in polygamous sects for decades. Fifth, it creates an uneven distribution of the sexes. If a man marries several wives then that leaves fewer women for other men. As gay people would only tend to marry each other anyways, the same problem doesn't exist with same sex couples.

    Can you see how there numerous issues that exist within polygamous marriages which make them incomparable to same sex marriages? Or are you simply going to ignore them because they are inconvenient for your argument?

    (Page 30 of 34) - Plurality Policy and the Politics of Polygamous People authored by Engbers, Trent.

    Peer Reviewed, Read the 30-32 I believe, you'll find that much of the legal basis for Polygamy is based on issues no longer a problem (like, non-Mormans attacking Mormans...) and that the state has to face the reality that Polygamy is a growing issue. In this context from a religious stand point.

    I think you'll find much of what CC argues is easily debunked therein.


    A nice article from Canada on the issue.

    Why we don?t need to make polygamy a crime - Andrew Coyne - Macleans.ca


    Study Suggests Polygamy May Lead To A Longer Life - Health News - redOrbit



    The positive effects of legalizing polygamy: "love is a many splendored thing". - Free Online Library
    I'll get back to you on these articles as soon as I've had a chance to read them. Assuming that these articles did meet the 2nd criteria you still need to meet the 1st and 3rd. I don't know why you consider this a high bar either, this is the basic reasoning that is needed so that you can make an argument that same sex marriage is comparable to polygamy and will lead to polygamy.
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 02-01-10 at 05:47 AM.

  2. #1772
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Why are heterosexual unions anymore deserving of special recognition than homosexual unions?

    If heterosexual unions are afforded certain rights, then there's no ground to deny homosexual unions those same rights. Voting their rights away does not justify it.
    Why are homosexual unions between two people anymore deserving of special recognition than polyamourous unions?

    If homosexual unions are afforded certain rights, then there's no ground to deny polyamorous unions those same rights. Voting their rights away does not justify it.
    Last edited by Panache; 02-01-10 at 02:02 PM.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    1. Name one country or state that as a direct result of legalizing gay marriage has legalized polygamy.

    2. Name one peer reviewed source which supports the argument that polygamy will be beneficial to society. I could name several for same sex marriage.

    3. Explain how polygamy is the same as same sex marriage. I can name several disparities that exist in polygamy that do no exist in same sex marriage.

    If you cannot do these simple things, then I think it is pretty clear that your argument is nothing but slippery slope fallacy easily discredited with evidence. If you continue to use the argument, then it is clear that you lack any objectivity in the issue and will ignore any argument which disproves your claims.
    You make a compelling argument. Since the entire purpose of gay marriage is to give privileges to gay couples that are denied to others, giving everybody those rights would just defeat the purpose wouldn't it?

    Clearly moving a group from a lower caste to a higher caste will not get rid of an unjust caste system, and those with hearts big enough to hold love for more than one person will continue to be discriminated against.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Homosexuals are only trying to justify and their choice to be homosexual because they can't deal with reality.

    After all the whole I was born this way is and always has been a lie.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Homosexuals are only trying to justify and their choice to be homosexual because they can't deal with reality.

    After all the whole I was born this way is and always has been a lie.
    And you base this bit of nonsense on what?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Homosexuals are only trying to justify and their choice to be homosexual because they can't deal with reality.

    After all the whole I was born this way is and always has been a lie.
    I used to believe that, but I also believe that Transexuals as a whole, are genetically pre-disposed.

    However, that doesn't mean every homosexual is so by birth, there is a lot more then just "genetic pre-disposition". Which is a stance neither side seems to like.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Your collective inability to read is amazing. My thoughts are reality based.

    The Gay Gene?

    On July 15, 1993, National Public Radio (NPR) made a dramatic announcement on stations across the country: Was a team of scientists at the National Institutes of Health on the trail of a gene that causes homosexuality? Their report would be published the next day in Science, one of the two most prestigious scientific research journals in the world.

    The discussion that followed explained for the listening public the implications of these findings for social attitudes toward homosexuality and for public policy concerning it. Science was on the verge of proving what many had long argued: that homosexuality is innate, genetic and therefore unchangeable-a normal and commonplace variant of human nature. In the light of these findings, surely only the bigoted or ignorant could condemn it in any way.

    Shortly after the announcement, amidst a well-orchestrated blizzard of press discussions, there ensued the watershed legal battle over "Proposition 2" in Colorado. (This popularly enacted legislation precluded making sexual orientation the basis of "privileged class" minority status, a status conferred previously only on the basis of immutable factors such as race.)

    Among the many crucial issues raised by the legislation was the question as to whether homosexuality was indeed normal, innate and unchangeable. One prominent researcher testified to the court, "I am 99.5% certain that homosexuality is genetic." But this personal opinion was widely misunderstood as "homosexuality is 99.5% genetic," implying that research had demonstrated this. Certainly, that was the message promulgated by NPR's report on the recent research, and by all the discussions that followed. In a few weeks, Newsweek would emblazon across its cover the phrase that would stick in the public mind as the final truth about homosexuality: "Gay Gene?"

    Of course, just near the end of the NPR discussion, certain necessary caveats were fleetingly added. But only an expert knew what they meant- that the research actually showed nothing whatever in the way of what was being discussed. The vast majority of listeners would think that homosexuality had been all but conclusively proven to be "genetic." But the real question is whether or not there is such a "gay gene."

    In fact, there is not, and the research being promoted as proving that there is provides no supporting evidence. How can this be? In order to understand what is really going on, one needs to understand some little- known features of the emerging study of behavioral genetics (much subtler than the genetics of simple, "Mendelian" traits such as eye color).

    When it comes to questions of the genetics of any behavior-homosexuality included-all of the following statements are likely to be at least roughly true:


    Such and such a behavior "is genetic";
    There are no genes that produce the behavior;
    The genes associated with the behavior are found on such and such a chromosome;
    The behavior is significantly heritable;
    The behavior is not inherited.
    The scientific distinctions that make these seeming contradictions perfectly reasonable and consistent seem completely misunderstood by the media who report on them.
    For example, in response to the "gay gene" research, the Wall Street Journal headlined their report (which appeared the next day), "Research Points Toward a Gay Gene."[2] A subheading of the Journal article stated, "Normal Variation"-leaving the casual reader with the impression that the research led to this conclusion. It did not, nor could it have. The subhead alluded to nothing more than the chief researcher's personal, unsubstantiated opinion that homosexuality, as he put it, "is a normal variant of human behavior." Even the New York Times, in its more moderate front-page article, "Report Suggests Homosexuality is Linked to Genes," noted that other researchers warned against over-interpreting the work, "or taking it to mean anything as simplistic as that the 'gay gene' had been found."

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    Your collective inability to read is amazing. My thoughts are reality based.

    The Gay Gene?
    So you believe it because some guy wrote a book in '96, and it said what you wanted it to? What about the fact even if being gay is not genetic, it may still be something beyond a persons control? What about the legitimate studies which show that orientation is determined very early in life and does not appear to change? What about the overwhelming body of evidence that says that orientation is not a choice? Oh wait, all that is inconvenient, so you will just dismiss it.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Councilman View Post
    You're a liberal believe only what you want or are told and this guy is a respected Doctor not some Guy and if you could you'd read much more of the research that proves the gene BS is just that.
    Stop, breath, use punctuation.

    Your "respected Doctor" is one guy, and one with an agenda at that. He does not trump all the loads of data on the subject.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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