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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

  1. #1761
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Ok, so go do that. That's what's going to touch someone's life in a tangible way. He's always going to believe the ignorant things he is going to believe. He has even confessed to this. And anyone with a shred of intelligence is going to recognize, buy into, or reject his bias.

    Yeah, it sucks to know ignorant people will be taken in, but it sucks even more to take that Atlas chore upon yourself. In effect, there's no cure for stupid no matter how hard you rail against it.

    Are we clear?
    I don't appreciate being called ignorant OR Stupid, and CC thanking you is out of line. Do your job MODERATOR.

    Or is it okay now to call others ignorant and stupid for not agreeing with one now?

    Hey, it's not my fault CC is ignorant to the fact that Gay Marriage WILL lead to Polygamy, and you just can't cure that kinda stupid.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Hey, it's not my fault CC is ignorant to the fact that Gay Marriage WILL lead to Polygamy, and you just can't cure that kinda stupid.
    1. Name one country or state that as a direct result of legalizing gay marriage has legalized polygamy.

    2. Name one peer reviewed source which supports the argument that polygamy will be beneficial to society. I could name several for same sex marriage.

    3. Explain how polygamy is the same as same sex marriage. I can name several disparities that exist in polygamy that do no exist in same sex marriage.

    If you cannot do these simple things, then I think it is pretty clear that your argument is nothing but slippery slope fallacy easily discredited with evidence. If you continue to use the argument, then it is clear that you lack any objectivity in the issue and will ignore any argument which disproves your claims.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    ...Adam and Steve's sweaty man-sex going on down the street...
    Oh Lord! No! Please, stop! Someone get the Holy water!!!

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Man, you know I respect you deeply. But right now, you are making it so hard for me to defend you.
    I can understand why, we are on different sides of the issue but like I said to CC I believe I am the consistent one when it comes to gay marriage and polygamy........Two groups of people that want to marry...Both at the time against the law in most states...........If you allow one you have to allow the other.....That is being consistent my friend............sorry
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho View Post
    No, it was a direct and exact answer to your specific post.

    I'm beginning to see a trend in your posts here.
    As you see I post a lot..can you be specific without the rhetoric? thanks
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    Gay Marriage is kinda like Abortion.... highly emotionally charged, spends much of the time in the courts with both sides fearing and desiring a "roe Vs. Wade" moment that goes their way...

    And when it boils down... those of you FOR Gay Marriage... if your state bars it, hey it's the law of the land man, just accept it.
    Why are heterosexual unions anymore deserving of special recognition than homosexual unions?

    If heterosexual unions are afforded certain rights, then there's no ground to deny homosexual unions those same rights. Voting their rights away does not justify it.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Can I come to your wedding in a few years? I promise you that the overwhelming majority of Californians will come to their senses in a few years. CAN I? CAN I? Can I be the flower girl? We can do it like a theme wedding. All males wear dresses and females wear suits and tuxes.
    Oh!!!! Me too!!!

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    I don't appreciate being called ignorant OR Stupid, and CC thanking you is out of line. Do your job MODERATOR.
    Moderator's Warning:
    New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage BillYou have an issue with moderation, you will NOT address it publicly.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #1769
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    1. Name one country or state that as a direct result of legalizing gay marriage has legalized polygamy.

    I posted a neat little article for you to read on a three way in I think it was the Netherlands? Yeah, try reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    2. Name one peer reviewed source which supports the argument that polygamy will be beneficial to society. I could name several for same sex marriage.
    Name the arguments, change homosexual to polygamous and there you go.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    3. Explain how polygamy is the same as same sex marriage. I can name several disparities that exist in polygamy that do no exist in same sex marriage.
    Those are exceptions, not the rule. Not all three or four party relationships have the same faults or benefits. It's not your place to judge what works for others.

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    If you cannot do these simple things, then I think it is pretty clear that your argument is nothing but slippery slope fallacy easily discredited with evidence. If you continue to use the argument, then it is clear that you lack any objectivity in the issue and will ignore any argument which disproves your claims.
    You set a very high bar, and demand it be crossed or you will dismiss the argument. That's fine, be my guest. Not you, Not CC, nor anyone else has been able to alter the simple fact that the legal arguments for Same Sex Marriage equally apply to Polygamy. You can demand "peer reviewed" all you want... That doesn't change a thing.

    (Page 30 of 34) - Plurality Policy and the Politics of Polygamous People authored by Engbers, Trent.

    Peer Reviewed, Read the 30-32 I believe, you'll find that much of the legal basis for Polygamy is based on issues no longer a problem (like, non-Mormans attacking Mormans...) and that the state has to face the reality that Polygamy is a growing issue. In this context from a religious stand point.

    I think you'll find much of what CC argues is easily debunked therein.


    A nice article from Canada on the issue.

    Why we don?t need to make polygamy a crime - Andrew Coyne - Macleans.ca

    Study Suggests Polygamy May Lead To A Longer Life

    Posted on: Tuesday, 19 August 2008, 15:25 CDT

    New research suggests that men from polygamous cultures outlive those from monogamous ones.

    Virpi Lummaa, an ecologist at the University of Sheffield, suggested that after accounting for socioeconomic differences, men aged over 60 from 140 countries that practice polygamy to varying degrees lived on average 12% longer than men from 49 mostly monogamous nations.

    The research looks to solve the long-standing puzzle of life expectancy in human biology.

    A phenomenon called the grandmother effect seeks to explain why women are able to live so long after the menopause—unlike nearly all other animals.

    Lummaa says for every 10 years a woman survives past the menopause, she gains two additional grandchildren. It seems that doting on and spoiling grandchildren aids their survival, as well as furthering some of their grandmother’s genes.
    Study Suggests Polygamy May Lead To A Longer Life - Health News - redOrbit


    III. LEGALIZING AND REGULATING POLYGAMY

    Public policy need not be constrained by an overriding, universally held, moral conclusion. Rather, public policy, to be effective, should be practical, and more moderately developed because Americans, over time, often change their minds on matters they once considered immoral. Consider alcohol consumption and prostitution. Both practices are now considered legal in certain localities or all of the U.S., in part because the state and local governments recognized that these acts were going to continue regardless of whether they were legalized. When alcohol was banned nationwide during Prohibition it continued to be widely available, and the law was often violated. (159) John D. Rockefeller, a teetotaler




    , ironically spurred the repeal of the Eighteenth Amendment


    because he believed that prohibition had led to an increased disregard for the law. (160)

    The illegality of these acts merely drove the practitioners underground, exacerbating the practices' negative effects. Prohibition spawned bootleggers, speakeasies, the sale of poisonous alcohol, and created a lawless liquor industry largely run by the mafia. (161) In the case of prostitution, many scholars believe the laws against the practice have only helped make life more difficult for prostitutes because the laws exclude them from legal protection, encouraging predators to take advantage of their "powerlessness." (162) Polygamy, like prostitution and alcohol consumption, is another area in which public policy could reflect practicality, not morality, and, in turn, allow for more effective regulation.

    Most importantly

    , legalizing polygamy could positively affect polygynist women and children. Polygynists, like monogamists, are diverse and vary in their beliefs and practices. (163) While some polygynists may struggle to survive in hovels, others ponder how to expand the size of their 12,000-square-foot homes to ensure that all of their wives are comfortable. (164) Not all polygynists marry teenage brides, beat their children, or commit welfare fraud. One study concluded that these abuses are the result of "particularly dysfunctional" polygynist families rather than problems inherent to polygyny. (165) Condemning every practicing polygynist to prevent the abuses of some may be counterintuitive


    . Some law enforcement officials agree. One FBI agent familiar with polygynous sects said, "At least 99% of all polygamists are peaceful, law-abiding people, no threat to anybody. It's unfortunate that they're stigmatized by a band of renegades." (166)

    Moreover, the number of polygynists in the United States is climbing. In Utah, the polygynous community grew tenfold over the last fifty years, and polygynists now constitute two percent of the state's population. (167) In Colorado City alone, the town's number of polygynous residents has doubled every decade since the 1930s. (168) Not only will polygynists maintain their rate of growth due to high birth rates and conversions, but fundamentalist Mormons will continue to embed themselves in the "American scene." (169) Polygynists undeniably have a place in American history; and for good or ill, they believe strongly in their right to practice what they consider to be a core religious belief. They have fought for their culture and way of life against societal and government pressure and persecution, and there is no indication that they will yield. (170) As Utah's Attorney General Mark L. Shurtleff admits, "The thinking is this: This is a big group of people. They are not going away. You can't incarcerate them all. You can't drive them out of the state. So they are here. What do we do about it?" (171) Simply put, polygynists are "here to stay." (172)
    The positive effects of legalizing polygamy: "love is a many splendored thing". - Free Online Library
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



  10. #1770
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Why are heterosexual unions anymore deserving of special recognition than homosexual unions?

    If heterosexual unions are afforded certain rights, then there's no ground to deny homosexual unions those same rights. Voting their rights away does not justify it.
    Don't assume I am against Homosexual Civil Unions... I'm not. I understand why there is such opposition to gay MARRIAGE, and I also accept that this will lead to group marriages.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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