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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Well, I'm not sure if I posted them in this thread or not, but give me a moment to dig them up and edit some of the headers. I'll just post that children of gay relationships stuff. The rest really isn't pertinent.
    Fair enough.

    Second, the Perry plaintiffs want acceptance, and testified that they want to marry in order to feel "validation" for who they are. They want to "experience the same joy and happiness" as married couples. They further say that "there is no way to describe how it feels" to not be allowed to marry and that they feel "not good enough to marry." Polyamorous people have also desire "acceptance" and to be able to "live together openly and proclaim [their] relationship." They don't want to fact criticism for living a polyamorous lifestyle. If social acceptance is a valid basis for same-sex marriage, it is an equally-valid basis for marriage of three or more.

    The plaintiffs have described the history of discrimination against gays and lesbians. One expert testified that "lesbians and gay men have experienced widespread and acute discrimination." Similarly, polyamorous families can actually lose custody of their children simply because there are more than two adults in the household. Like same-sex couples, polyamorists fear "legal penalties, professional penalties, and the emotional penalty of shame and blame" for their lifestyles. If rectifying discrimination is a basis for same-sex marriage, it is also a basis for marriage of three or more.

    I challenge anyone who reads these words to do one simple task: State an argument for same-sex marriage that doesn't also justify polyamorous marriage. You will find that it's not simple task at all.
    Understand the Consequences of Same-Sex Marriage: Perry is a Friend to Polyamory
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    I was mistaken. They only take up two posts. I had edited them about a year ago to streamline some of the commentary.

    Now, there are so many studies on this that posting them all will take up too much bandwidth. I'll post a select few.

    Studies:
    Anderssen, N., Amlie, C., & Ytteroy, E. A. (2002). Outcomes for children with lesbian or gay parents: A review of studies from 1978 to 2000. Scandinavian Journal of Psychology, 43, 335-351.

    Reviewed 23 empirical studies published between 1978 and 2000 on nonclinical children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers (one Belgian/Dutch, one Danish, three British, and 18 North American). Twenty studies reported on offspring of lesbian mothers, and three on offspring of gay fathers. The studies encompassed a total of 615 offspring (age range 1.5-44 yrs.) of lesbian mothers or gay fathers and 387 controls, who were assessed by psychological tests, questionnaires, or interviews. Seven types of outcomes were found to be typical: emotional functioning, sexual preference, stigmatization, gender role behavior, behavioral adjustment, gender identity, and cognitive functioning. Children raised by lesbian mothers or gay fathers did not systematically differ from other children on any of the outcomes. The studies indicate that children raised by lesbian women do not experience adverse outcomes compared with other children. The same holds for children raised by gay men, but more studies should be done.
    615 offspring from gay parents; 387 controls from straight parents. No differences in 7 types of functioning.

    That's ONE.

    Gottman, J. S. (1990). Children of gay and lesbian parents. In F. W. Bozett & M. B. Sussman (Eds.), Homosexuality and family relations (pp. 177-196). New York: Harrington Park Press.

    Reviews research literature on children of homosexual (HS) parents, including comparisons with children of heterosexual parents. Children of HS parents did not appear deviant in gender identity, sexual orientation, or social adjustment. Issues that emerged during their upbringing related more to society's rejection of homosexuality than to poor parent-child relationships. Most social adjustment problems occurred in both groups and were commonly related to family history of divorce. Results are supported by J. Schwartz's (unpublished manuscript) investigation of the above variables in adult-aged daughters in relation to mothers' sexual orientations, with a focus on role modeling theory.
    No difference between children raised by gay parents vs. straight parents on 3 scales. Only issue was society's issue with homosexuality; parenting was a non-issue.

    That's TWO.

    Kleber, D. J., Howell, R. J., & Tibbits-Kleber, A. L. (1986). The impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases: A review of the literature. Bulletin of the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law, 14, 81-87.

    Reviews the literature on the impact of parental homosexuality in child custody cases. As a result of the relatively high rate of divorce in the United States and the increasing awareness that many parents (an estimated 1.5 million) are homosexual, the courts and divorce mediators have become actively involved in child custody placement decisions involving homosexual parents. While custody decisions have tended to reflect stereotyped beliefs or fears concerning the detrimental effects of homosexual parenting practices on child development, the research literature provides no evidence substantiating these fears. Several specific custody issues are discussed as well as social factors relevant to lesbian motherhood.
    Interesting study. No significant issues when homosexual parents obtain custody when a divorce occurs.

    That's THREE.

    Victor, S. B., & Fish, M. C. (1995). Lesbian mothers and their children: A review for school psychologists. School Psychology Review, 24, 456-479.

    Reviews 56 studies (published from 1971 to 1994) on lesbian mothers and their children. Three main family patterns and some common misconceptions about these families are addressed. Research suggests there are no differences between children of lesbians and children of heterosexuals with regard to their emotional health, interpersonal relationships, sexual orientation, or gender development. Psychological adjustment and parenting skills were not significantly different for lesbian and heterosexual mothers. Implications for school psychology practice and training are discussed.
    No significant difference in important emotional health issues between children raised by lesbian parents vs. straight parents.

    That's FOUR.

    Bigner, J. J., & Jacobsen, R. B. (1989b). Parenting behaviors of homosexual and heterosexual fathers. In F. W. Bozett (Ed.), Homosexuality and the family (pp. 173-186). New York: Harrington Park Press.

    Compared the responses of 33 homosexual (HMS) fathers with those of 33 heterosexual (HTS) fathers on the Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory. HMS subjects did not differ significantly from HTS subjects in their reported degree of involvement or in intimacy level with children. HMS subjects tended to be more strict and more responsive to children's needs and provided reasons for appropriate behavior to children more consistently than HTS subjects. Possible explanations for these similarities and differences in parenting styles are explored.
    Homosexual parenting vs. Heterosexual parenting is explored. No significant differences were found, though homosexual parents tended to be more strict, more responsive, and more consistent with their children.

    That's FIVE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Continued...

    Bos, H. M. W., van Balen, F., & van den Boom, D. C. (2004). Experience of parenthood, couple relationship, social support, and child-rearing goals in planned lesbian mother families. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 45, 755-764.

    The phenomenon of planned lesbian families is relatively new. The overall aim of this research was to examine whether planned lesbian mother families differ from heterosexual families on factors that are assumed to influence the parent-child relationship, such as experience of parenthood, child-rearing goals, couple relationship, and social support. One hundred lesbian two-mother families were compared with 100 heterosexual families having naturally conceived children. A variety of measures were used to collect the data, including questionnaires and a diary of activities kept by the parents. Lesbian parents are no less competent or more burdened than heterosexual parents. Both lesbian and heterosexual parents consider it important to develop qualities of independence in their children. However, "conformity" as a childrearing goal is less important to lesbian mothers. Furthermore, lesbian social mothers feel more often than fathers in heterosexual families that they must justify the quality of their parenthood. There are few differences between lesbian couples and heterosexual couples, except that lesbian mothers appear less attuned to traditional child-rearing goals and lesbian social mothers appear more to defend their position as mother.
    Lesbian parents vs. Biological parents. Both are equally competent and unburdened. Styles may be different, but no other differences.

    That's SIX (and a rather nice six, I might add).

    Flaks, D., Ficher, I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 104-114.

    Compared 15 lesbian couples and the 3- to 9-year-old children born to them through donor insemination with 15 matched, heterosexual-parent families. A variety of assessment measures were used to evaluate the children's cognitive functioning and behavioral adjustment as well as the parents' relationship quality and parenting skills. Results revealed no significant differences between the two groups of children, who also compared favorably with the standardization samples for the instruments used. In addition, no significant differences were found between dyadic adjustment of lesbian and heterosexual couples. Only in the area of parenting did the two groups of couples differ: Lesbian couples exhibited more parenting awareness skills than did heterosexual couples. The implications of these findings are discussed.
    Lesbian parents vs. heterosexual parents. No differences except that the lesbian parents exhibited more parenting awareness.

    That's SEVEN. Your "biological" position smells real bad right now.

    McPherson, D. (1993). Gay parenting couples: Parenting arrangements, arrangement satisfaction, and relationship satisfaction. Unpublished doctoral dissertation, Pacific Graduate School of Psychology.

    Twenty-eight gay male parenting couples and 27 heterosexual parenting couples from across the United States participated in a study comparing gay parenting couples and heterosexual parenting couples. Gay parenting couples are already existing gay couples into which a child has been brought prior to the child's 9-month birthday and in which the child is presently being reared. Parents' division of labor and satisfaction with their division of labor was assessed using Cowan and Cowan's Who Does What? Relationship satisfaction was assessed using a single question on relationship satisfaction and Spanier's 32-item Dyadic Adjustment Scale (DAS). Results revealed gay parenting couples demonstrate significantly more equitable arrangements of parenting tasks and roles and significantly greater satisfaction with those arrangements than the heterosexual parenting couples. A single question on relationship satisfaction revealed no significant difference between groups in reported satisfaction, while the 32-item DAS revealed the gay parenting couples to be significantly more satisfied with their relationships than the heterosexual couples, especially in the area of dyadic cohesion and affective expression. Post-hoc testing revealed a gender difference: Women reported significantly greater dissatisfaction with parenting arrangements than their husbands or gay parents. Findings are explained in terms of three factors unique to the experience and social setting of gay parenting couples.
    Gay male couples vs. heterosexual couples. The gay couples were happier and more equitable in their parenting tasks. Other than that, no significant differences.

    That's EIGHT.

    Miller, B. (1979). Gay fathers and their children. Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

    Presents data from a 3-year study on the quality and nature of the relationships of homosexual fathers with their children. In-depth interviews were conducted with a snowball sample of 40 gay fathers and 14 of their children. Uses a cross-national sample: Interviews were conducted in large and small cities in both Canada and the United States. Excluded from the study were men who no longer saw their children. Fathers were aged from 24 to 64, and the children who were interviewed ranged from 14 to 33 years of age. Addresses the nature of the father-child relationship and the children's adjustment to their father's homosexuality. Four issues frequently raised in custody cases are discussed: Do gay fathers have children to cover their homosexuality, do they molest their children, do their children turn out to be gay in disproportionate numbers, and does having a gay father expose a child to homophobic harassment. Concludes that concerns that gay fathers will have a negative impact on their children's development are unfounded.
    The impact on the children of gay fathers based on 4 concerns. No negative impact.

    That's NINE.

    Green, R., Mandel, J. B., Hotvedt, M. E., Gray, J., & Smith, L. (1986). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparison with solo parent heterosexual mothers and their children. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7, 175-181.

    Compared the sexual identity and social relationships of 30 daughters and 26 sons (aged 3-11 yrs.) of 50 homosexual mothers with 28 daughters and 20 sons of 40 heterosexual mothers. Mothers were currently unmarried White women aged 25-46 years. In addition to age and race, mothers were matched on length of separation from father; educational level and income; and number, age, and sex of children. Subjects were from rural and urban areas in 10 U.S. states and lived without adult males in the household for a minimum of 2 years. Data from children's tests on intelligence, core-morphologic sexual identity, gender-role preferences, family and peer group relationships, and adjustment to the single-parent family indicate that there were no significant differences between the two types of households for boys and few significant differences for girls. Data also reveal more similarities than differences in parenting experiences, marital history, and present living situations of the two groups of mothers. It is suggested that the mother's sexual orientation per se should not enter into considerations on parental fitness that are commonly asserted in child custody cases.
    Children's sexual identity when reared by lesbian mothers vs, heterosexual mothers was explored. No difference in boys; few in girls. Mostly, both groups were similar.

    That's TEN.

    Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 24, 551-572.

    Compared the psychosexual development, emotions, behavior, and relationships of 37 children (aged 5-17 yrs.) reared in 27 lesbian households with 38 children (aged 5-27 yrs.) reared in 27 heterosexual single-parent households. Systematic standardized interviews with the mothers and with the children, together with parent and teacher questionnaires, were used to make the psychosexual and psychiatric assessments. The two groups did not differ in terms of their gender identity, sex-role behavior, or sexual orientation. Also, they did not differ on most measures of emotions, behavior, and relationships, although there was some indication of more frequent psychiatric problems in the single-parent group. It is concluded that rearing in a lesbian household per se does not lead to atypical psychosexual development or constitute a psychiatric risk factor.
    Children in lesbian households vs. those in single-parent heterosexual households on sexual identity. No significant difference. In fact, no difference on any emotional/behavioral scale.

    That's ELEVEN.

    Had enough, yet? No? OK.

    Kirkpatrick, M., Smith, C., & Roy, R. (1981). Lesbian mothers and their children: A comparative survey. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51, 545-551.

    Forty 5- to 12-year-olds, divided equally into groups according to their mothers' sexual choice and within group by sex, were assessed with a developmental history, WISC scores, the Holtzman Inkblot Technique, and the Human Figure Drawing test. Subjects' gender development was not identifiably different in the two groups. Prevalence of disturbance was not found to be a function of the mother's sexual choice.
    Children of lesbian mothers vs. heterosexual mothers in regards to developmental, intellectual, and emotional functioning. No significant difference.

    That's TWELVE.

    Links used:

    Lesbian & Gay Parents
    Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents
    Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian & Gay Parents & Their Children
    Empirical Studies Generally Related to the Fitness of Lesbians and Gay Men as Parents
    Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children
    Reviews of Empirical Studies Specifically Related to Lesbian and Gay Parents and Their Children

    Unfortunately, since the original thread is now housed in the Basement, I cannot link to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    It really isn't about you, you just made a target, and now you'd rather have a discussion about how it's ALL ABOUT YOU, rather then face the fact that Gay Marriage WILL lead to group marriage.
    No, you've made it about me, MrV. You have made a lot of personal comments about me, making it personall. If not, you would have just stayed with the topic. You've done this before, though not in a while.

    It's coming. All the tactics being used to promote gay marriage, all the small steps to make it legal... can be used by the group marriage (so much easier to type then polygamy..) advocates. Gay marriage will pave the way.
    And even if it is tried, it will fail. It does not benefit the individual, society, or the state. The government has no reason to sanction it. It is not a discrimination issue either because there is no "polygamous sexual orientation". I explained this, logically, in my post.

    You cannot prove that there is any legal reason why 3 people in love shouldn't be allowed to enter into a legally binding union.
    I have shown why the state has no vested interest in sanctioning it. There is evidence that shows the benefits of GM, so, if the state chooses, it could sanction it based on that. I reject the "love" issue. The state has nothing to do with "love". There is NO evidence of the benefits of plural marriage; on the contrary, logically, it is NOT beneficial. So, there is no reason for the government to entertain this possibility.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No, you've made it about me, MrV. You have made a lot of personal comments about me, making it personall. If not, you would have just stayed with the topic. You've done this before, though not in a while.



    And even if it is tried, it will fail. It does not benefit the individual, society, or the state. The government has no reason to sanction it. It is not a discrimination issue either because there is no "polygamous sexual orientation". I explained this, logically, in my post.



    I have shown why the state has no vested interest in sanctioning it. There is evidence that shows the benefits of GM, so, if the state chooses, it could sanction it based on that. I reject the "love" issue. The state has nothing to do with "love". There is NO evidence of the benefits of plural marriage; on the contrary, logically, it is NOT beneficial. So, there is no reason for the government to entertain this possibility.
    Why? At this point, what are you proving?

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Why? At this point, what are you proving?
    At this point, I have no idea. Whatever his personal vendetta, I'm not going to change him. I've already stated my position and my evidence, clearly. He can do as he wants with it. I have some RL work to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    At this point, I have no idea. Whatever his personal vendetta, I'm not going to change him. I've already stated my position and my evidence, clearly. He can do as he wants with it. I have some RL work to do.
    Ok, so go do that. That's what's going to touch someone's life in a tangible way. He's always going to believe the ignorant things he is going to believe. He has even confessed to this. And anyone with a shred of intelligence is going to recognize, buy into, or reject his bias.

    Yeah, it sucks to know ignorant people will be taken in, but it sucks even more to take that Atlas chore upon yourself. In effect, there's no cure for stupid no matter how hard you rail against it.

    Are we clear?
    Last edited by jallman; 01-31-10 at 02:41 PM.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    Ok, so go do that. That's what's going to touch someone's life in a tangible way. He's always going to believe the ignorant things he is going to believe. He has even confessed to this. And anyone with a shred of intelligence is going to recognize, buy into, or reject his bias.

    Yeah, it sucks to know ignorant people will be taken in, but it sucks even more to take that Atlas chore upon yourself. In effect, there's no cure for stupid no matter how hard you rail against it.

    Are we clear?
    Completely clear, sir.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Completely clear, sir.
    My father was a sir and he deserved the title for fighting and dying for the same issues we both rail against. I am not a sir...yet.

    We are just adherents of the truth. That will be all.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    That is a whole new thread my friend....
    No, it was a direct and exact answer to your specific post.

    I'm beginning to see a trend in your posts here.

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