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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    No not at all.......I am just saying how Lions do it and FOR THE SAKE OF argument I believe a man that married 2 women could leave the kids with them when he went to work and they would have to mothers to take care of them...what is wrong with that?if as yousay its beneficial for children to have to fathers then I say with polygamysts its the same thing.........

    I personally don't want either class to be able to marry...I am consistent on the issue CC..You are not..........
    Man, you know I respect you deeply. But right now, you are making it so hard for me to defend you.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I guess we are at and impass because you won't give and neither will I..........
    Well, honesty is a trait to be admired and this is why I admire you. You are honest, if not correct.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I'll put down money right now that he posts single parent statistics. Any takers?
    '
    Sure, I'll take that bet.
    According to the recent quantitative analysis on same-sex parenting by Lerner and Nagai, 49 American studies, which advocate homosexual parenting, have fatal flaws, rendering them statistically invalid (non-representative samples, imprecise hypotheses, confused political objectives, etc.). The researchers concluded that the studies repeatedly referred to by American, European and Canadian homosexual lobbies should not be used to influence the politics of their respective governments. This conclusion was also expressed by Professor Stephen L. Nock, Professor of Sociology, University of Virginia, who, in an affidavit submitted by the federal Attorney General in the Ontario Court of Appeal same-sex marriage case, evaluated statistics on same-sex parenting and concluded that the studies were flawed in either design or execution, which rendered them totally invalid.

    According to a paper published by Professor Bradley P. Hayton, there are serious concerns about the effects of a homosexual lifestyle on children. Professor Hayton states:

    Homosexuals model a poor view of marriage to children. They are taught by example and belief that marital relationships are transitory and most sexual in nature. Sexual relationships are primarily for pleasure rather than procreation. And they are taught that monogamy in a marriage is not the norm [and] should be discouraged if one wants a good 'marital' relationship.

    The reason that same-sex parenting is detrimental to the well being of children is due to several factors:

    1. Higher Incidence of Violence

    There is a higher rate of violence in lesbian and homosexual relationships than in married, heterosexual relationships. A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90% of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31% reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse. This is verified in a number of other studies. According to the homosexual authors of Men Who Beat The Men Who Love Them, domestic violence affects half of all gay couples. The vast majority of violent crimes against homosexuals are committed by homosexuals, and are not considered hate crimes. According to the leading US gay magazine The Advocate, 75% of its readers admit engaging in violent sex, 20% in sadistic sex and 55% are using painful objects.

    2. Higher Incidence of Mental Health Problems

    There is a higher incidence of mental health problems among homosexuals and lesbians. These include problems of substance abuse, as well as a greater risk for suicide. Homophobia is often blamed for the high suicide rate of young gays but this cause is only one among many, such as prostitution, broken families, sexual assault at a young age, disappointments in love affairs, and premature homosexual labeling.

    3. Reduced Life Expectancy

    Male homosexuals have a significantly reduced life expectancy. A study published in the International Journal of Epidemiology on the mortality rates of homosexuals stated as follows:

    In a major Canadian center, life expectancy at age twenty for gay and bisexual men is eight to twenty years less than for all men. If the same pattern of mortality were to continue, we estimate that nearly half of gay and bisexual men currently aged twenty years will not reach their sixty-fifth birthday. Under even the most liberal assumptions, gay and bisexual men in this urban center are now experiencing a life expectancy similar to that experienced by all men in Canada in the year 1871.

    4. Higher Incidence of Same-sex Orientation

    Same-sex parents are inclined to influence their children's sexual orientation. A study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior, stated as follows:

    there are developmentally important, statistically significant differences between children reared by homosexual parents compared to heterosexual parents. For example, children raised by homosexuals were found to have greater parental encouragement for cross-gender behaviour [and] greater amounts of cross-dressing and cross-gender play/role behaviour.

    5. Greater Risk of Sexual Involvement with Parents.

    According to a study published in Adolescence, 29% of the adult children of homosexual parents have been specifically subjected to sexual molestation as a child by a homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6 percent of adult children of heterosexual parents.

    These findings were confirmed in a study published in the American Sociological Review.

    6. Greater Risk of Social or Psychological Problems.

    The vast majority of the American studies widely used by homosexual activists claim that same-sex parenting is as valid as opposite-sex parenting. However, as mentioned previously, these earlier studies have been found to be seriously flawed. According to a study there were noticeable problems with children raised by same-sex parents in regard to discipline expectations, and general parent-child relationships. Other studies have also reported that boys raised by homosexual mothers may have a lower self-image, regarding masculinity. A study of children of lesbians revealed many problems, including a "defensiveness" on the part of the children of lesbian couples she studied, a pattern of denial - especially deep in the youngest child in the lesbian couples, hostility from older boys, especially directed at the mother's lesbian lover, the children expressed concern for the welfare of siblings, the children had concerns about their own sexuality, the children had concerns about the integrity of their family, concerns about their mother's homosexual activities, there was evidence that one of the lesbian mothers expressly encouraged her daughters to make lesbian sexual choices, and that the children were forced to conceal one parent's secret sexual behaviours from the other parent.

    All these problems have led to the children raised by same-sex parents becoming dysfunctional and disadvantaged.

    7. Higher Incidence of Child Molestation

    Proportionately, homosexual men are more inclined to child molestation than heterosexual men.

    According to American studies, the evidence indicates that homosexual men molest boys and teenagers at rates completely disproportionate to the rates at which heterosexual men molest girls. A study shows that the homosexual child molester accounts for approximately 7 times more victims than the heterosexual molester. When it comes to child sex abuse, men are almost always the perpetrator. Less than 3% of the population is homosexual, yet one-third of the sex abuse cases are committed again boys.

    Although pedophilia is condemned by most homosexuals, it remains condoned by many leading gay and lesbian North American activists who lobby for the lowering of the age of consent for sex. Early sex is said to be healthy for boys claims the self-proclaimed homosexual association NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association). Intergenerational sex (an often used euphemism for pederasty) is an undeniable fixture of gay literature, gay films, gay travel and gay prostitution. In the 70's, The Advocate repeatedly ran full page adds for a "penetrable boy doll" and in the 90's, 21% of its readers admitted having been molested before the age of 15.

    Conclusion

    What is behind the statement by the Canadian Psychological Association? Are its members just plain mad? Clearly, its statement on same-sex parenting has a lot to do with politics and pressure from homosexual activists. Unfortunately, the Association's conclusions have almost nothing to do with genuine social science research. The Canadian Psychological Association should be embarrassed and ashamed.
    Real Women of Canada - Newsletters - SAME-SEX PARENTING IS HARMFUL TO CHILDREN


    See CC, anyone can play the "I have data game". My source says your sources are flawed for political reasons, and lays out why. What makes your sources more "right" then mine? Because they give the conclusions you want them too?

    I am quite sure that there are WONDERFUL Gay couples of either sex that raise happy, well adjusted children. I'm not gonna say it doesn't happen, that would be arrogant of me to presume otherwise. However, for you to claim there is no difference in a gay family Vs. a straight family, that all the reasons brought up are just biased bigotry based in ignorance is wrong.


    Just as it is arrogant of you to proclaim polygamist marriages are bad, and you have the studies that say otherwise. We are at an impasse again.

    You think you know what I am doing, it appears you are in error here as well. What I am doing, and I'll even tell you so there is no confusion. I'm exposing your claims of having the "right answer" for the ego driven arrogance that it is. Navy Pride holds his point of view, but he doesn't debate his point with the same "logical style" that you do, so he's wrong.

    I intentionally went a little over the top, just to get you to post in that highly condescending manner you tend to post in when you feel you are right beyond reproach. I personally find that particular attribute of yours to be your least endearing quality.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    What data?

    You provided an unreferenced piece of junk that compared unmarried homosexual couples in Canada to married heterosexuals in Canada. That right there made it completely methodologically unsound.

    This is the same so called "evidence" that was used to fight against the initiation of same sex marriage in Canada. But notice the glorious lack of specific citations so that no one one can actually pull up the specific sources that were used to craft this crap. This isn't data, it is a piece of propaganda where they cherry picked information from studies. Furthermore, it is dated in 2003, and much of the information that CC and I provide is much more recent and actually does have full citation.

    I mean, come on, its reference for child molestation is "According to American studies...". What studies in America say that? From where?

    I could easily cherry pick the statistical disparities that African Americans have, such as greater mental health issues, substance abuse, domestic abuse, etc. and make an argument very similar to the one your "data" just made that they are a danger to society and children. It would be as racist as your statement above was homophobic.

    What you posted above is even more pathetic than had you posted single parents stats. Why not post arguments from NARTH and the Family Research Institute while you are at it?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 01-31-10 at 12:57 PM.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    '
    Sure, I'll take that bet.

    Real Women of Canada - Newsletters - SAME-SEX PARENTING IS HARMFUL TO CHILDREN


    See CC, anyone can play the "I have data game". My source says your sources are flawed for political reasons, and lays out why. What makes your sources more "right" then mine? Because they give the conclusions you want them too?

    I am quite sure that there are WONDERFUL Gay couples of either sex that raise happy, well adjusted children. I'm not gonna say it doesn't happen, that would be arrogant of me to presume otherwise. However, for you to claim there is no difference in a gay family Vs. a straight family, that all the reasons brought up are just biased bigotry based in ignorance is wrong.


    Just as it is arrogant of you to proclaim polygamist marriages are bad, and you have the studies that say otherwise. We are at an impasse again.

    You think you know what I am doing, it appears you are in error here as well. What I am doing, and I'll even tell you so there is no confusion. I'm exposing your claims of having the "right answer" for the ego driven arrogance that it is. Navy Pride holds his point of view, but he doesn't debate his point with the same "logical style" that you do, so he's wrong.

    I intentionally went a little over the top, just to get you to post in that highly condescending manner you tend to post in when you feel you are right beyond reproach. I personally find that particular attribute of yours to be your least endearing quality.
    I think it's because CC is a LCSW or LPC and feels he is more qualified to make conclusions on these topics than any of us. My ex is an LPC, so I understand the thinking. The trouble is they become consumed by their methods and philosophies. That doesn't mean they're wrong, but it does mean they are predictable. Whenever CC discusses these sorts of things, he sounds the same. And I've heard it all before after 25 years with the same women. The central premise to this profession is that because they study and treat the mind, they can judge your thoughts with unimpuned authority because the mind is the key to reality and therefore all of man's actions. The problems is that they are also human with flawed human minds. Furthermore the brain and the mind is so complex, that their profession (i.e., knowledge and methods) are probably the more imperfect of any. I fully expect a rebuttal, but it will be irrelevant.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think it's because CC is a LCSW or LPC and feels he is more qualified to make conclusions on these topics than any of us. My ex is an LPC, so I understand the thinking. The trouble is they become consumed by their methods and philosophies. That doesn't mean they're wrong, but it does mean they are predictable. Whenever CC discusses these sorts of things, he sounds the same. And I've heard it all before after 25 years with the same women. The central premise to this profession is that because they study and treat the mind, they can judge your thoughts with unimpuned authority because the mind is the key to reality and therefore all of man's actions. The problems is that they are also human with flawed human minds. Furthermore the brain and the mind is so complex, that their profession (i.e., knowledge and methods) are probably the more imperfect of any. I fully expect a rebuttal, but it will be irrelevant.
    For **** sake!

    I give up. Many of the people here don't even have the basic intellectual capability to understand the difference between a cited and referenced journal and an unreferenced piece of political propaganda. I mean if this is really the level of intelligence of people who are opposed to same sex marriage, then I guess I have wasted my time debating this issue.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    For **** sake!

    I give up. Many of the people here don't even have the basic intellectual capability to understand the difference between a cited and referenced journal and an unreferenced piece of political propaganda. I mean if this is really the level of intelligence of people who are opposed to same sex marriage, then I guess I have wasted my time debating this issue.
    No, I was poking a big stick in CC's argument that he has "sources". I took 20 seconds to find "counter" sources. No, I'm not gonna spend 2 hours finding peer reviewed sources with full bibliographies and source work. I rarely do that anymore. You know why? Cause people like yourself pop off with classic rebuttals like...

    "That's old data"
    "Well, your link for this part is from a biased source because they take money from Y and have an agenda"

    So it really doesn't matter what source I use, the predictable response is ALWAYS THE SAME.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    '
    Sure, I'll take that bet.

    Real Women of Canada - Newsletters - SAME-SEX PARENTING IS HARMFUL TO CHILDREN


    See CC, anyone can play the "I have data game". My source says your sources are flawed for political reasons, and lays out why. What makes your sources more "right" then mine? Because they give the conclusions you want them too?
    I reject this study as both methodologically unsound in some areas, as having no research attached to it in others, and there being no links to research for me to examine. You've got NOTHING MrV. You have a paper, one whose methodology is not credible or valid because it has not been peer reviewed or been repeated. See, THAT'S how one can tell if a study is valid. Yours is not. So, I would appreciate it if you would come at me with something pertinent. I'm pretty busy around here and it is tiresome to have to dismiss such irrelevance.

    I am quite sure that there are WONDERFUL Gay couples of either sex that raise happy, well adjusted children. I'm not gonna say it doesn't happen, that would be arrogant of me to presume otherwise. However, for you to claim there is no difference in a gay family Vs. a straight family, that all the reasons brought up are just biased bigotry based in ignorance is wrong.
    No, it's completely accurate. You have done nothing to dispel what I have said. You so desperately want your position to be right (and I believe to "beat" me) that you will throw something as poor as that link at me. Unfortunately for you, you can do neither. I can demonstrate scores of studies that are peer reviewed and repeatable, demonstrating credibility and validity. Like I said, you have nothing.


    Just as it is arrogant of you to proclaim polygamist marriages are bad, and you have the studies that say otherwise. We are at an impasse again.
    Sure, the impasse is that you refuse to acknowledge facts. As long as you recognize that, it's OK with me.

    You think you know what I am doing, it appears you are in error here as well. What I am doing, and I'll even tell you so there is no confusion. I'm exposing your claims of having the "right answer" for the ego driven arrogance that it is. Navy Pride holds his point of view, but he doesn't debate his point with the same "logical style" that you do, so he's wrong.
    I am perfectly aware of what you are doing, MrV. You explained it below. It didn't elude me. It is also inconsequential. I'm not altering how I post.

    And NP has his point of view, but there is no logic behind it. That's what you are missing. Mine does. It's not about a logical style. It's about logic itself.

    I intentionally went a little over the top, just to get you to post in that highly condescending manner you tend to post in when you feel you are right beyond reproach. I personally find that particular attribute of yours to be your least endearing quality.
    I ALWAYS post in a condescending manner when someone attempts to force their arrogance and non-logic at me. THAT is how YOU post and it is YOUR least endearing quality. And trust me. I have no intention of changing my style when folks come at me like you do.

    So, are we done here?
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    I think it's because CC is a LCSW or LPC and feels he is more qualified to make conclusions on these topics than any of us. My ex is an LPC, so I understand the thinking. The trouble is they become consumed by their methods and philosophies. That doesn't mean they're wrong, but it does mean they are predictable. Whenever CC discusses these sorts of things, he sounds the same. And I've heard it all before after 25 years with the same women. The central premise to this profession is that because they study and treat the mind, they can judge your thoughts with unimpuned authority because the mind is the key to reality and therefore all of man's actions. The problems is that they are also human with flawed human minds. Furthermore the brain and the mind is so complex, that their profession (i.e., knowledge and methods) are probably the more imperfect of any. I fully expect a rebuttal, but it will be irrelevant.
    Only rebuttal I can come up with is that you have completely misjudged what I do and what I believe. I am a little surprised because we have spoken at times. Then again, perhaps not.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #1730
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    No, I was poking a big stick in CC's argument that he has "sources".
    He does have sources. Sources that actually reference their sources.

    I took 20 seconds to find "counter" sources.
    What counter sources? You found a website that doesn't even list its sources. Is CC suppose to be struck by how you countered the referenced journals of organizations like the American Pediatric Association with an anti gay rights website that doesn't even list its sources?


    No, I'm not gonna spend 2 hours finding peer reviewed sources with full bibliographies and source work. I rarely do that anymore. You know why? Cause people like yourself pop off with classic rebuttals like...

    "That's old data"
    "Well, your link for this part is from a biased source because they take money from Y and have an agenda"
    So let me get this straight...you posted a source that you know is biased, which you know doesn't provide any degree of reference, and which you know is old data, so that you could argue that posting data is useless? Puh leez. All you have proven is that you don't have valid and substantial data to support your views so you will resort to posting crap and arguing that posting any data is a waste of your time. That is pathetic and intellectually dishonest to the nth degree.

    So it really doesn't matter what source I use, the predictable response is ALWAYS THE SAME.
    That might be because you don't seem to know how to obtain valid data or how to use it.

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