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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Jallman>
    That's not showing me where I made an appeal to nature fallacy. That's you being childish like a 4th grader just as you accused me of.

    My, my aren't you just full of contradictions?

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Here's a question. If it is NOT a tendency for people to aim towards happiness, and to try to find happiness in relationships, why do people break up/get divorced? If happiness is not the goal, if they are not happy in the relationship, why not just remain for simplicity's sake?
    Did anyone actually make such an assertion? I think people have a tendency to want to be happy. Jallman thinks that people have a tendency to choose to be happy. Charles Martel thinks that... well, maybe think is a bit of a strong word in that case...

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    Did anyone actually make such an assertion? I think people have a tendency to want to be happy. Jallman thinks that people have a tendency to choose to be happy. Charles Martel thinks that... well, maybe think is a bit of a strong word in that case...
    I can agree that when you distill all these assertions down to their baseline, it is ultimately that people choose what is going to make them happy.

    It's also evident that evidence is overwhelming that being partnered lifelong is considered to be what makes us happy when it comes to relationships.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I can agree that when you distill all these assertions down to their baseline, it is ultimately that people choose what is going to make them happy.

    It's also evident that evidence is overwhelming that being partnered lifelong is considered to be what makes us happy when it comes to relationships.
    I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think its any of the government's damn business.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that. I just don't think its any of the government's damn business.
    OK. But I think it's dumb to even entertain the idea of the marriage contract, as a state function, being abolished. It's simply not going to happen nor should it. It streamlines and simplifies too much of our social order to be done away with.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    I can agree that when you distill all these assertions down to their baseline, it is ultimately that people choose what is going to make them happy.
    And the government makes "concessions" given these choices people make that result in happiness...

    ..just like all other contracts
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    And the government makes "concessions" given these choices people make that result in happiness...

    ..just like all other contracts
    I see that in your absence you made no attempt to brush up on that comprehension problem you have.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    OK. But I think it's dumb to even entertain the idea of the marriage contract, as a state function, being abolished. It's simply not going to happen nor should it. It streamlines and simplifies too much of our social order to be done away with.
    I never claimed that it was practical.

    Suppose, hypothetically, that discrimination was so integrated and institutionalized that treating gays like human beings would be a terribly impractical and unrealistic endeavor. Would that stop you from advocating that they should be?

    I don't have any illusions that getting rid of marriage licenses in one fell swoop is going to happen anytime soon. That being the ultimate goal however, I would like to see things move in that direction rather than away from it.

    I would be fine with tackling each of those 1138 items one at a time, and slowly weaning people off of marriage licenses until they became redundant.

    It is a problem when a family can contest the validity of someone's inheritance because they weren't married to the deceased. When gay marriage becomes legal, that problem will still exist, it just won't be a problem for gay partners who chose to get a marriage license.

    If we actually solved the problem by making it so that the wishes of the deceased were honoured, it would solve the problem for everyone. If married people want to leave everything to their spouse, they can write them into their will, just like everyone else has to.

    Same concept applies to every other item on the list.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Panache View Post
    I never claimed that it was practical.

    Suppose, hypothetically, that discrimination was so integrated and institutionalized that treating gays like human beings would be a terribly impractical and unrealistic endeavor. Would that stop you from advocating that they should be?
    I can't imagine any context within the framework of our society in which such a thing would be a possibility. But, you are correct if you are expectiing my answer to be no.

    However, make no mistake about my position: I don't think marriage should be abolished. I think marriage is a worthy institution for a number of reasons.

    I don't have any illusions that getting rid of marriage licenses in one fell swoop is going to happen anytime soon. That being the ultimate goal however, I would like to see things move in that direction rather than away from it.
    Our goals actually intersect, if you think about it. If you eliminate the tradition and religious aspect by moving to civil unions, you may have an easier time later (as in like 100 years or so) of moving them away from the civil aspect, too.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    I can't imagine any context within the framework of our society in which such a thing would be a possibility. But, you are correct if you are expectiing my answer to be no.

    However, make no mistake about my position: I don't think marriage should be abolished. I think marriage is a worthy institution for a number of reasons.
    Well, you are entitled to your misconceptions.

    Our goals actually intersect, if you think about it. If you eliminate the tradition and religious aspect by moving to civil unions, you may have an easier time later (as in like 100 years or so) of moving them away from the civil aspect, too.
    If government started acknowledging civil unions instead of marriages, I would certainly consider that a step in the right direction.

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