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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    It was the law in California and Maine that same sex marriage was allowed. How did those who oppose same sex marriage live with the law?
    Opponenets of ssm didn't learn to live with the law, they changed it. After the Maine Legislature passed ssm, opponents used the public veto process within Maine law requiring a statewide referendum. By 53%, Maine shot down ssm, leaving 5 states that issue licenses. California another state that has a referendum process and defeated ssm. We don't live with it, CT, what gave you that idea? Hasn't the argument from opponents of ssm consistently argued that We the People should decide this issue? And so, the issue is taken right to the voter where permittable.

    Now, how do we live with these other 5 states allowing ssm? We prevent our own states first from recognizing those marriages and then, hopefully begin an initiative for a federal amendent.

    Don't tell people to live with the law while you are doing everything in your power to change the law. It's patronizing to say the least. You are insinuating that same sex marriage supporters do not live with the law and that opponents do, when the reality is nobody is really happy with the situation we have at present.
    Yes, I can see your argument there, I think that does apply. I'll stand corrected. I very much do think you have every right to not live with the decision and take appropriate measures. However, once on the books, we'll both have to obey the laws...albeit whining about it.

    How dare you insinuate that same sex marriage supporters must limit themselves to one front while opponents are free to fight on the state and federal level.
    Yes you are correct, I again, stand corrected. I was having a tit for tat with another member who was telling me I'd have to live with the law and, by mistake, got caught up in that. You are correct here, CT, I appreciate you setting me straight. When looking at this argument of yours, it makes sense. I would never allow ssm to be determined by some Robe in a court or exec in an office, I wouldn't sit still one second. And I know see...to be perfectly fair...I shouldn't expect you to sit idle either.

    Are you as well supportive of a US Constitutional amendment initiaitve...just to see where the entire nation is on this issue....and however it goes, we'd both live with that?
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 01-26-10 at 12:13 PM.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CrusaderRabbit08 View Post
    You don't want to go there, it's a hypocritical stance. CriticalThought's reply was well said.
    The Doma should be their target, that isn't hypocrisy. Certainly, I can see CT's reply and see where you wouldn't sit idle and have every right I do to speak up. But, should the DOMA be your first target?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Yes you are correct, I again, stand corrected. I was having a tit for tat with another member who was telling me I'd have to live with the law and, by mistake, got caught up in that. You are correct here, CT, I appreciate you setting me straight. When looking at this argument of yours, it makes sense. I would never allow ssm to be determined by some Robe in a court or exec in an office, I wouldn't sit still one second. And I know see...to be perfectly fair...I shouldn't expect you to sit idle either.
    Now you are starting to get it.

    Are you as well supportive of a US Constitutional amendment initiaitve...just to see where the entire nation is on this issue....and however it goes, we'd both live with that?
    No. Just because the federal government passes an amendment to the Constitution does not make it right. They passed Prohibition, and that didn't work. If they passed a federal amendment banning same sex marriage, then I would work my entire life to see it repealed. Don't think the issue will just go away. It doesn't matter what you do, people on both sides are going to fight this for as long as they live. If the Supreme Court ruled that same sex marriage must be legal in every state, you would fight to have a federal amendment banning same sex marriage. If you succeeded, then we would fight to repeal that federal amendment. That is how a Constitutional Republic works. Just because people make something into law doesn't mean that people have to settle for it. This, like many issues, is one that is here to stay.

    For the time being, your side is winning. You have 31-0 as far as states are concerned, and Indiana may make it 32-0 if they pass their Constitutional amendment. The polls indicate that only a third of the country supports same sex marriage, whereas 58% support civil unions. In essence, if your side ever smarted up and pushed through federal civil unions that granted all the same rights as marriage, then the same sex marriage issue would probably be settled for a generation or two simply because it is very difficult to argue that having all the legal rights does not satisfy the Constitutional arguments. At that point you would only be talking about the word, "marriage" and it would be quite an uphill battle if not impossible for same sex marriage proponents to overcome it. But because your side actually wants to deny gays any and all rights, same sex marriage has a shot. A small shot, but a real one that may come in a Supreme Court ruling next year that could be just as tumultuous as Roe v. Wade.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    No they're not. And you'd agree the Legislature is where you'd take these 'matters' for consideration?
    However, the court is fully within its powers to make a ruling.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    If they passed a federal amendment banning same sex marriage, then I would work my entire life to see it repealed.
    You mean offer a further amendment?

    This, like many issues, is one that is here to stay.
    Fair enough.

    For the time being, your side is winning.
    Thank God.

    In essence, if your side ever smarted up and pushed through federal civil unions that granted all the same rights as marriage, then the same sex marriage issue would probably be settled for a generation or two simply because it is very difficult to argue that having all the legal rights does not satisfy the Constitutional arguments.
    Why push civil unions, we don't necessarily agree with those either, and, it wouldn't "probably" settle the issue, as you say, many would fight for "equal status" and the Doma signed under Clinton has already lasted a generation.

    But because your side actually wants to deny gays any and all rights
    Now...we'll have this debate wihtout the hysterics and drama...correct? I mean...we can have this debate...same sex marriage...without you crowing on about denying "any and all rights". I stood corrected where I needed to, you need to edit this as well.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by jallman View Post
    However, the court is fully within its powers to make a ruling.
    And we're fully within ours to redefine. As long as We the People are given final word, the court can rule all it wants. In the end, some impossible to misinterpret law must be written. CT corrects you as well here, the court can rule.....but We the People aren't just going to sit on that ruling, we will fight to change the law.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    And you're arguing earlier that marriage is like any other contract? What in the world!! You're trying to tell me.....or it turns out...sell me....that any other contract...given the natural tendencies for humans to enter contracts....and leading to "pursuit of one's happiness" is the equal to ANY other contract that requires two people to be responsible or some such nonsense. You've now jumped into what the "point" of the marriage contract is?
    You are being obtuse and not even making any sense. I suggest you move on from this before you look even more foolish than you already do.

    The State even making "concessions for us to choose one person irreplaceable to us"............yeah....just like every other contract mentioned in example in this thread, huh?
    Just like any other contract, just for different purposes.

    Point of a marriage contract, Sir? Based on a "natural tendency of humans".....Sir? Directly tied to our very happiness Sir.....is like any other contract.

    I debated in college, formal rules, tight lipped sort of stuff, actually chasing a chick and that's why I got into it. This right here....this mistake you just made defining marriage and thus making it unique and quite unlike any other contract...is called a colossal error on your part. You've just contradicted yourself Jallman.....big time. There isn't a contract on this earth in the manner in which YOU just described while you're pretending otherwise just days ago. For crying out loud, may I ask for a consistent argument to take on, this all over Left field back and forth contradictions are difficult.



    Why not, you do it and use the state to implement.



    We the People though....are that State....you seem to keep misunderstanding that.
    I don't give a flying **** what you did in college, sir. You obviously took nothing of value from the experience because you don't even know what the definition of a contradiction is. There was nothing contradictory in my stance; all you are doing is comparing the aspect of the "how" against the aspect of the "why" and creating some asinine argument built on shifting sand.

    Is this where you start the "neener neener neener" routine or do you just cry that someone is being "insulting" and making irrelevant conjectures about emotional states?

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    You mean offer a further amendment?
    Yes. It would probably take the better part of a century, but it isn't impossible.

    Why push civil unions, we don't necessarily agree with those either, and, it wouldn't "probably" settle the issue, as you say, many would fight for "equal status" and the Doma signed under Clinton has already lasted a generation.
    You aren't thinking sociologically. If people have a generation or two to get used to civil unions, then it could cut same sex marriage support in half. A lot of gay people would just be happy to settle for civil unions and rights advocates are more concerned with the rights than with the word "marriage". There would always be a small, vocal group aiming for same sex marriage, but at that point, a federal amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman would most likely be pushed through. In essence, it is because of the bigotry of your side that seeks to discriminate against gays that same sex marriage has any shot with such little popular support. If you demanded federal civil unions as a compromise, then it would be the virtual end of the debate in this century.

    As it is right now, if you managed to trump the Supreme Court and even push through a federal amendment, you would ensure the debate became as livid as abortion for decades to come.

    Now...we'll have this debate wihtout the hysterics and drama...correct? I mean...we can have this debate...same sex marriage...without you crowing on about denying "any and all rights". I stood corrected where I needed to, you need to edit this as well.
    Politics is about sensationalism. Your side has argued that gays want same sex marriage simply so that they can lower the age of consent and molest children. Do you really think your side is going to stop making such claims? If not, then why would you expect the other side to stop making claims that you dislike?
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 01-26-10 at 01:28 PM.

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Gay Marriage is kinda like Abortion.... highly emotionally charged, spends much of the time in the courts with both sides fearing and desiring a "roe Vs. Wade" moment that goes their way...

    And when it boils down... those of you FOR Gay Marriage... if your state bars it, hey it's the law of the land man, just accept it.
    Climate, changes. It takes a particularly uneducated population to buy into the idea that it's their fault climate is changing and further political solutions can fix it.



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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by MrVicchio View Post
    And when it boils down... those of you FOR Gay Marriage... if your state bars it, hey it's the law of the land man, just accept it.
    No.........

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