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Thread: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

  1. #1241
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It's funny how you're always "through" with me -- though you never actually are -- exactly when the debate turns against you.

    Whether or not you have the goods -- or the cojones -- to rigorously debate what you say is entirely up to you, of course.

    Give the formulation I asked for, or simply admit you can't. This tantrum-throwing is irrelevant.
    Groucho is fro Whistlestopper.........that is a forum where the liberal out number the conservative about 10 to 1.........He is used to ganging up on a person there.........Not like that in DP.......
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Check out the 14th amendment , equal protection clause you might learn something........Equal protection means all citizens and that includes peope who engage in polygamy as well as other classes of people defined by their sexuak preference.......
    Thats not what equal protection means Navy. I've tried to educated you repeatedly....even given you bipartisan links so you don't have to take my word...but you refuse to educate yourself on this issue.

    Discrimination is NOT unlawful under the US Constitution. The Constitution allows people to be treated differently, it just requires the Government to meet certain requirements to justify the differential treatment.

    THAT's exctly what the issue with gay marriage is going to be. Currently gays are treated different than straights in their ability to marry the person they choose. The Court may say that this discrimination is ok, because that discrimination may serve an "important" governmental interest. If the court finds that there is no important governmental interest served, it will be stricken as unconstitutional.

    With inter-racial marriage, the Court was dealing with issues of Race which is considered a "suspect class". Governmental discrimination against a "suspect class" receives greater scrutiny. In order to pass Constitutional muster, the Government must show a "compelling" governmental interest.

    So...you see Navy...different groups are treated differently under the Constitution depending on whether they are a suspect class and depending upon the nature of the right infringed upon is.

    Polygamists and other groups would receive minimal scrutiny, requiring only a "legitimate" governmental interest. Gays receive the intermediate level. The court has never been willing to treat gays as a completely "suspect class".
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  3. #1243
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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Thats not what equal protection means Navy. I've tried to educated you repeatedly....even given you bipartisan links so you don't have to take my word...but you refuse to educate yourself on this issue.

    Discrimination is NOT unlawful under the US Constitution. The Constitution allows people to be treated differently, it just requires the Government to meet certain requirements to justify the differential treatment.

    THAT's exctly what the issue with gay marriage is going to be. Currently gays are treated different than straights in their ability to marry the person they choose. The Court may say that this discrimination is ok, because that discrimination may serve an "important" governmental interest. If the court finds that there is no important governmental interest served, it will be stricken as unconstitutional.

    With inter-racial marriage, the Court was dealing with issues of Race which is considered a "suspect class". Governmental discrimination against a "suspect class" receives greater scrutiny. In order to pass Constitutional muster, the Government must show a "compelling" governmental interest.

    So...you see Navy...different groups are treated differently under the Constitution depending on whether they are a suspect class and depending upon the nature of the right infringed upon is.

    Polygamists and other groups would receive minimal scrutiny, requiring only a "legitimate" governmental interest. Gays receive the intermediate level. The court has never been willing to treat gays as a completely "suspect class".
    So if you can't use the 14th amendment (which a lot of liberals want to do) to allow marriage for other groups defined by their sexual preference tthen you can't use it for gays...........simple as that DD. Gays use it, other classes can to...........
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Aha! Finally, a lawyerly argument!

    It is true that polygamists per se would not be a suspect class, but religion is, and there is at least one prominent religion, or sects of it, which could bring a religious argument. If equal-protection arguments were extended based on that, then you'd have another equal-protection argument.

    (To say nothing, of course, of the can of worms opened by arguing for a protection-worthy sexual component to marriage, because you then have to explore exactly what relationship sex has to marriage. But that's a different issue.)
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Thats not what equal protection means Navy. I've tried to educated you repeatedly....even given you bipartisan links so you don't have to take my word...but you refuse to educate yourself on this issue.

    Discrimination is NOT unlawful under the US Constitution. The Constitution allows people to be treated differently, it just requires the Government to meet certain requirements to justify the differential treatment.

    THAT's exctly what the issue with gay marriage is going to be. Currently gays are treated different than straights in their ability to marry the person they choose. The Court may say that this discrimination is ok, because that discrimination may serve an "important" governmental interest. If the court finds that there is no important governmental interest served, it will be stricken as unconstitutional.

    With inter-racial marriage, the Court was dealing with issues of Race which is considered a "suspect class". Governmental discrimination against a "suspect class" receives greater scrutiny. In order to pass Constitutional muster, the Government must show a "compelling" governmental interest.

    So...you see Navy...different groups are treated differently under the Constitution depending on whether they are a suspect class and depending upon the nature of the right infringed upon is.

    Polygamists and other groups would receive minimal scrutiny, requiring only a "legitimate" governmental interest. Gays receive the intermediate level. The court has never been willing to treat gays as a completely "suspect class".
    Sexual orientation or homosexuality has never ever been defined under the equal protect clause under the Constitution not in the Constitution itself or any amendment ever passed.

    And discrimination is tolerated under the Constitution. You can't murder anyone without consequence, you cannot steal without consequence. This is what happens when you live in the world of theory and generality. You can't make claims like this broad based claim about discrimination and ignore the consequence of interpreting something at such a general level.
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    John Adams

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Aha! Finally, a lawyerly argument!

    It is true that polygamists per se would not be a suspect class, but religion is, and there is at least one prominent religion, or sects of it, which could bring a religious argument. If equal-protection arguments were extended based on that, then you'd have another equal-protection argument.

    (To say nothing, of course, of the can of worms opened by arguing for a protection-worthy sexual component to marriage, because you then have to explore exactly what relationship sex has to marriage. But that's a different issue.)
    I wish I had the link but I read that Polygamysts groups are watching the gay marriage issue very closely and if by some means its approved they are ready to throw that hat into the basket............
    "God Bless Our Troops in Harms Way."

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Just Google it. A lot comes up. It's happening in New Hampshire, in Canada, and other places.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    So if you can't use the 14th amendment (which a lot of liberals want to do) to allow marriage for other groups defined by their sexual preference tthen you can't use it for gays...........simple as that DD. Gays use it, other classes can to...........
    How you can read something (assuming that you read it)...and fail to comprehend anything in it is beyond me.

    No one is saying that any group CAN'T make an Equal Protection claim...

    Of course they can...its the level of scrutiny that the Court will use that differs depending upon the classification of the class involved and the rights involved....
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    Sexual orientation or homosexuality has never ever been defined under the equal protect clause under the Constitution not in the Constitution itself or any amendment ever passed.

    And discrimination is tolerated under the Constitution. You can't murder anyone without consequence, you cannot steal without consequence. This is what happens when you live in the world of theory and generality. You can't make claims like this broad based claim about discrimination and ignore the consequence of interpreting something at such a general level.
    Of course it has. It has never been recognized as a "suspect class" if that is what you are trying to say.

    However, Sexual Orientation has often been the subject of Equal protection claims under the US Constitution.

    As for your second claim. I agree. Discrimination is tolerated under the Constitution as long as it meets the criteria I listed in my post (which make me believe that you didn't read the post and simply posted a knee-jerk reaction here).
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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    Re: New Jersey Senate Defeats Gay Marriage Bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    I wish I had the link but I read that Polygamysts groups are watching the gay marriage issue very closely and if by some means its approved they are ready to throw that hat into the basket............
    Of course they are....it doesn't mean that the same arguments or the same level of scrutiny will be applied by the Court.
    Of course...you will say that it will...but that just shows once again that you have no clue what Equal Protection analysis is all about.

    I seriously don't know why I bother Navy....I guess part of me believes that there is a little something inside of you that maybe one day will take the opportunity to learn. I refuse to believe that you are a lost cause.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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