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Thread: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

  1. #321
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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    They proved inadequate. They were slow, often unfairly run, and innocent people were held, tortured and wrong for far too long.
    They are adequate. They have been slow due to Democratic obstructionism.

    The treatment of enemy combatants while incarcerated in a different issue than tribunals. We can, by law, hold them as long as we like.

    Says the man not in their shoes.
    Say American national security.

    Yes, they were. Justice. A reasonable time frame to determine guilt and innocence. Fair play.
    This is merely your opinion, which is not supported by current laws.

    Tell yourself anything you like to excuse it, but reality is (besides having a liberal bias ) that things would have been slower without democrats putting pressure on the administration.
    This point is irrelevant anyway, because we can, by law, hold them as long as we like. Your opinions on these matters are not supported by the current laws.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    rather opened ended isn't that? Explains why the courts had to interfere.
    Complaints about the law aren't as bad as denying them all together so this makes more sense. Pretenfing it isn't rule of law....no matter how open ended you believe it is..was what I was pointing out.

    Again, like the taxi cab driver turned in by the enemy in order to get inside our circle, walking in a country doesn't make you part of a battlefield. A field of battle is where a fight, a battle is taking place. You definition is too broad.
    And yours is much too narrow. The example terrorist given, if you'll remember, was a Saudi involved in many jihadist movements, was fleeing Afghansitan into Pakistan throught the mountains to the east of Tora Bora ahead of Us airstrikes. And because the man wasn't carrying a weapon when he tried to get through Pakistani border security, you would have released him. The record is clear, JD.

    Please, show this precedence of us picking up people around the world and holding them without due process.
    We even brought tens of thousands of ww2 prisoners here to the US. 50,000 or so Italians, same number of Germans. True? Anyone of them EVER receive due process. And why not we just start with out first wars JD, for precedence of people around the world, let's see.......against the Barbary War during Jefferson's term as we boarded ships and invaded the shores of tripoli. Would our first foreign encounter then suffice. Please JD, you act as if I need to show you, EVERY FOREIGN WAR we've ever been in we've picked people up off the streets and seaways and imprisoned them w/o even the right to challenge their dententions. Stop pretedning.

    No. They are not spies. There is no uniform, so civilian clothes is the uniform. Again, you can't ignore reality just to suit you.
    Sabateurs is what they are the GC very specific. Targeting civilians out of uniform, are you going to deny terrorists aren't engaged in such? Again, stop preteding JD, your argument is sily.

    Not doing that. Reading his actions.
    Reading his actions..based on his mindset...JD. You've been caught breaking your own rules before.

    No. That's your misreading.
    Pretend I'm from Missouri.

    KSM pleaded guilty before anything was done.
    Pretend I'm from Missouri.

    And I've told no lies.
    I'm unconvinced.

    A person picked up off the street, having done nothing, is not an enemy combatant.
    Been treated as such in every conflict known to man.

    it is not the same as past wars.
    Admitting this is unprecedented doesn't make you less wrong. It is the same as past wars, I;ve just given you examples. And furthermore remind you, no war is like any other. THe Civil War quite different. The Revolutionary War quite different, how were English treated then? How were saboteurs treated then?

    You are admittingly weak in history, I'm only offering help.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
    Article 5. And note article 5 defines when you forfeit communication...it assumes detention. See the first sentence regarding an occuped territory...it begins "where an individual protected person is detained", note.....and this is very important...it doesn't prevent detention, if you'll notice that is the Left's and JD/Boo's argument here that this is unprecedented....while it's mentioned in the very GC they're arguing with. Astonishingly naive!

    BTW, I never got my answer on your name here, the connection intriguing as Atticus also a character n the same story. Who played Boo, I don't remember. Was it the Godfather actor guy, I forget his name.
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 01-07-10 at 05:12 PM.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Article 5. And note article 5 defines when you forfeit communication...it assumes detention. See the first sentence regarding an occuped territory...it begins "where an individual protected person is detained", note.....and this is very important...it doesn't prevent detention, if you'll notice that is the Left's and JD/Boo's argument here that this is unprecedented....while it's mentioned in the very GC they're arguing with. Astonishingly naive!

    BTW, I never got my answer on your name here, the connection intriguing as Atticus also a character n the same story. Who played Boo, I don't remember. Was it the Godfather actor guy, I forget his name.
    You both seem to have a history together. Interesting discussion. By the way Robt. Duvall played Boo Radley in To Kill a Mockingbird

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    You both seem to have a history together.
    Yeah, they do. They were the reason of the downfall of our last home from requiring too much bandwith to house their never ending stream of posts.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

  6. #326
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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Complaints about the law aren't as bad as denying them all together so this makes more sense. Pretenfing it isn't rule of law....no matter how open ended you believe it is..was what I was pointing out.
    More just being silly.

    And yours is much too narrow. The example terrorist given, if you'll remember, was a Saudi involved in many jihadist movements, was fleeing Afghansitan into Pakistan throught the mountains to the east of Tora Bora ahead of Us airstrikes. And because the man wasn't carrying a weapon when he tried to get through Pakistani border security, you would have released him. The record is clear, JD.
    He had a history, as I recall, but was not involved in any firefight. He was walking.

    We even brought tens of thousands of ww2 prisoners here to the US. 50,000 or so Italians, same number of Germans. True? Anyone of them EVER receive due process. And why not we just start with out first wars JD, for precedence of people around the world, let's see.......against the Barbary War during Jefferson's term as we boarded ships and invaded the shores of tripoli. Would our first foreign encounter then suffice. Please JD, you act as if I need to show you, EVERY FOREIGN WAR we've ever been in we've picked people up off the streets and seaways and imprisoned them w/o even the right to challenge their dententions. Stop pretedning.
    This isn't at all like WWII. So, WWII would not be something that would be precedence. I've explained the difference ad nauseum.

    Sabateurs is what they are the GC very specific. Targeting civilians out of uniform, are you going to deny terrorists aren't engaged in such? Again, stop preteding JD, your argument is sily.
    There is no uniform to be out of, so not the same.

    Reading his actions..based on his mindset...JD. You've been caught breaking your own rules before.
    His mindset has nothing to do with it. So, again, you're wrong.


    I'm unconvinced.
    Don't feel lonely. You have always failed to convince me.


    Been treated as such in every conflict known to man.
    Where has this happen before?

    Admitting this is unprecedented doesn't make you less wrong. It is the same as past wars, I;ve just given you examples. And furthermore remind you, no war is like any other. THe Civil War quite different. The Revolutionary War quite different, how were English treated then? How were saboteurs treated then?
    Actually, I haven't seen example one. I'm still waiting for something that is actually like what we're doing now. You have not provided any example at all that fits as a match to what we're doing now.

  7. #327
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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    [quote=ScummyD;1058469667]
    They are adequate. They have been slow due to Democratic obstructionism.

    The treatment of enemy combatants while incarcerated in a different issue than tribunals. We can, by law, hold them as long as we like.
    That's factually incorrect. The release was not slowed by democrats, but sped up. Far fewer would have likely been released without that effort.


    Say American national security.
    I see no way that holding the innocent helps American national security.

    This is merely your opinion, which is not supported by current laws.
    I thought due process was an American law?

    This point is irrelevant anyway, because we can, by law, hold them as long as we like. Your opinions on these matters are not supported by the current laws.
    Until the court says otherwise. And I believe that has largely been the rulings of the courts. There is nothing just about holding the innocent.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    [quote=Boo Radley;1058470224]
    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post

    That's factually incorrect. The release was not slowed by democrats, but sped up. Far fewer would have likely been released without that effort.




    I see no way that holding the innocent helps American national security.



    I thought due process was an American law?



    Until the court says otherwise. And I believe that has largely been the rulings of the courts. There is nothing just about holding the innocent.
    Democrats and their allies in fact slowed the process of tribunals.

    Due process is inherent in tribunals; that's what they are.
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    [quote=ScummyD;1058470229]
    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post

    Democrats and their allies in fact slowed the process of tribunals.

    Due process is inherent in tribunals; that's what they are.
    No, due process isn't inherent, less so if the deck is stacked. But instead of us going back and forth with yes they were and no they weren't, how about showing some evidence as you're the making the positive claim.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley

    No, due process isn't inherent, less so if the deck is stacked. But instead of us going back and forth with yes they were and no they weren't, how about showing some evidence as you're the making the positive claim.
    It is inherent unless the system is corrupt.

    You made the claim that they were slowed. Setting aside that we have the right to hold enemy combatants as long as we like how about you provide something explaining where, how and why these trials were slowed and why that matters considering we can hold them as long as we like?
    "Muslims are OBLIGATED to raid the lands of the infidels, occupy them, and exchange their systems of governance for an Islamic system. . .They say that our sharia does not impose our particular beliefs upon others; this is a false assertion. For it is, in fact, part of our religion to IMPOSE our particular beliefs upon others." -bin Laden

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