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Thread: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

  1. #281
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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    The intricacies of domestic do not favor its use when dealing with enemy combatants and serve to hamper our efforts to defend ourselves, hence throughout our history domestic law has not been used to prosecute wars.
    I'm not sure that is true. I see nothing that has to hinder anything. I think that is more an unfounded concern.

    And if this was a war with a nation, in which we put people in POW camps and release them in a few years, I might agree. But as we're picking up people not on the battlefield, but all over the world and under questionable conditions, to be held indefinitely, well, we need something with real due process.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As pointed out many times, not all were captured on any battle field.
    Good for them.

    Why does that mean they should be allowed access to the US legal system?

    Meanwhile, we're discussing enemy combatants.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And they don't have to be poor puppies for us to follow the law and stay true to our values. As torture is mostly ineffective, the only reason to use it would be to get confessions (and even the innocent will confess) or to enact revenge, which isn't justice.
    Torture is usually effective, once the collected data is verified using other sources. Where on earth do you people get off spouting lies like that?

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not sure that is true. I see nothing that has to hinder anything. I think that is more an unfounded concern.

    And if this was a war with a nation, in which we put people in POW camps and release them in a few years, I might agree. But as we're picking up people not on the battlefield, but all over the world and under questionable conditions, to be held indefinitely, well, we need something with real due process.

    Easy.

    Once the war is over, we release the POW's.

    We're not like Vietnam.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm for rule of law. Our actions are subject to rule of law and not just rights.
    But. You must be aware of what that rule of law is.

    There's no history of a never ending war either.
    Visit the nation's Capitol, if you're lucky enough to see the underskirt, you'll find catacombs, we built the Capitol with a siege mentality and why, the Brits had burned our Capitol to the ground in the War of 1812, our never ending war with Britain written about by countless historians. Wars with Indians went on for a century, acts of terrorism there that make today's look lame.

    We're not at war with any country at the moment. Instead, we're fighting individuals, groups, and not nations. Not something that best fits traditional warfare.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    we need something with real due process.
    Meaning Gitmo where tribunals, detention, appeals, and death sentences can be carried out. There were those of us who realized the brilliance of Gitmo when it was opened. That now most state of the art facility answers every question Obama is trying to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to answer. What to do with the Gitmo prsioners?

    By the way...and as predicted by myself in Jan of 2009. No way Gitmo is closed by Jan 2010. And right on the mark as I can read them like a book, there won't be a single Obama supporter that holds him accountable. When he made the promise, I knew full well when it didn't get met, the excuses or downright disinterest would then apply.

    What did I tell you?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackdog View Post
    Ahhh a personal attack. Not a good start.
    I thought you said Americans are "more likely to not be PC and tell the truth of the situation", but now you can't handle the heat? I said the truth, if that's "personal attack", it's still the truth.


    I guess the news every day is not enough? You need statistics? And you say I don't understand?
    No it's not enough. That you think it is shows that indeed you do not understand.


    Please point out where I said the religion is the cause? I never said any such thing.
    I never said that you said it. Jeez, read carefully, will ya.

    So your comment above has nothing to do with what I said or it's meaning.
    It has nothing to do with you saying that Islam is the cause, but it has everything to do with your continued illogical reasoning.

    Islam, is not the only cause, but it does contribute. Denying this is just ignorance.
    And I say the flying spaghetti monster exists. So denying it is just ignorance. What do I care about supporting my claims.


    Again this has nothing at all to do with my point.

    It does not change the FACT that terrorism is perpetuated by Muslims in the majority of cases. It does not change the fact that trying to compare Christianity to Islam (in the context of your initial statement) is in itself ridicules.

    Now if you are finished with your personal attacks and fallacy filled rant?
    Read my "initial statement" again, and show me how the context is "to compare Christianity to Islam". I'll bet you don't even get the point I was making in my first post to scummy. But hey, that's why it was addressed to scummy, because s/he's usually more astute than most people, so maybe next time you don't muddle yourself in something you don't understand? I don't know why you even bothered if you are going to cry "personal attack" if the reply doesn't suit you.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 01-05-10 at 09:38 PM.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarecrow Akhbar View Post
    No.

    China, a country run by strongmen and gangsters (what are euphemistically called "socialists"), has no moral authority to do any such displacement.

    Also, do you believe those countries aren't vulnerable to a morally justifiable invasion by the US? Because by my standards, they are, the only issue is the answer to the "what's in it for us?" and "how much will this cost us?" questions that we need to answer for ourselves before we take action. That's it.

    We get to choose our own battles.

    In some ways the US is still a free country.

    Dig?


    And I think it was Conservative or American who said a few post back that the Liberals just don't understand because they think other people hold the same beliefs and value? What a joke. Do you even realise that there are people out there who think that Bush was a "strongmen and gangsters", and that the US is a bully? Hell it's what most terrorists tell themselves everyday. They are just fighting the big bad hypocritical tyrant of the world. By their standard they are conducting "morally justifiable" attack on the US. And according to your reasoning, why should they be stopped? And who should stop China from doing the same thing - the US, WWIII? See the problem with conducting foreign policy "by [your] standards"?


    Then China, being a strongman country itself, is wrong. Also, as the big dog on the planet, the US gets to decide if we should allow that, in our own assessment of our own interests.
    Or maybe you're just a great camedian. That would be funny.
    Last edited by nonpareil; 01-05-10 at 09:27 PM.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    The intricacies of domestic do not favor its use when dealing with enemy combatants and serve to hamper our efforts to defend ourselves, hence throughout our history domestic law has not been used to prosecute wars.
    Let's get serious a while: don't you think that by conducting the cases where we are sure of conviction in a court of justice, it gives the US a better image and lessen the ability of terrorists to use the US's actions as propaganda material to convert more people or garner support, and that in turns help in our effort to protect ourselves? In the past, news did not travel so quickly, nor are terrorists organisations so global, times has changed, isn't it smarter to evolve with the time and use the method most beneficial to the US in the long term?
    Last edited by nonpareil; 01-05-10 at 09:41 PM.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I thought you said Americans are "more likely to not be PC and tell the truth of the situation", but now you can't handle the heat? I said the truth, if that's "personal attack", it's still the truth.
    Attacking me instead of my views is against the rules here.

    "Spoken like someone who does not understand either logic or statistics. - nonpareil

    Nothing but an irrelevant personal attack that has nothing to do with the debate at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    No it's not enough. That you think it is shows that indeed you do not understand.
    And when I put up the statistics what would change?

    2010.01.04 (Mosul, Iraq) - Sunni bombers blast three civilians into pieces.
    2010.01.04 (Kirkuk, Iraq) - Three Iraqis are murdered in a Mujahideen double bombing.
    2010.01.03 (Bajaur, Pakistan) - Two tribal elders are blown to bits by a Taliban roadside bomb.
    2010.01.03 (Waziristan, Pakistan) - A bombing and separate rocket attack leave two people dead.
    2010.01.03 (Tal Abta, Iraq) - Three road construction workers are gunned down by Muslim terrorists.
    2010.01.03 (Hangu, Pakistan) - A Taliban roadside bomb ends the lives of four people.

    This is just 2 days. Do I need any more "statistics?"

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I never said that you said it. Jeez, read carefully, will ya.
    "Secondly, correlation is not causation. Even if (a big if) it is true that "the vast majority of attacks are perpetrated by Muslims", it doesn't necessarily follow that the religion Islam is the cause." - nonpareil

    So you are admitting it had nothing to do with my statement.

    This has nothing to do with your equating Muslims terrorists with Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    It has nothing to do with you saying that Islam is the cause, but it has everything to do with your continued illogical reasoning.
    So please enlighten us...

    How does this...

    "Secondly, correlation is not causation. Even if (a big if) it is true that "the vast majority of attacks are perpetrated by Muslims", it doesn't necessarily follow that the religion Islam is the cause." - nonpareil

    Translate into my reasoning for you equating Muslim terrorism with Christians?

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And I say the flying spaghetti monster exists. So denying it is just ignorance. What do I care about supporting my claims.
    OK. More fallacy that has nothing to do with anything I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Read my "initial statement" again, and show me how the context is "to compare Christianity to Islam".
    OK...

    "So what if it is true that "violence committed in the name of Christianity in recent decades " is less than "that committed by Muslims"? Does that mean that Islam is a more violent religion than Christianity? If it is so, you should stop eating ice-cream, because it makes you want to kill people. I'll bet you don't even get the point I was making in my first post to scummy." - nonpareil

    I understand your "point" perfectly. Makes it no less wrong and illogical.

    Muslims are not responsible for "more" violence. They are responsible for MOST of the terrorist violence around the world, not just the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    But hey, that's why it was addressed to scummy, because s/he's usually more astute than most people, so maybe next time you don't muddle yourself in something you don't understand?
    He said exactly the same thing I did...

    "Your comparison is silly to say the very least. I know liberals love to trot out McCVeigh and Christians anytime a discussion on radical Islam happens, but the level and scale of violence on the part of Muslims bears no relation to that of Christians. Diverting attention away from Muslims to Christians is silly and unreasonable. If you want to go tit for tat, you list violence committed in the name of Christianity in recent decades and I list that committed by Muslims, then I will simply blow you out of the water ten times over. It's not even comparable. No where even remotely close." - ScummyD

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    I don't know why you even bothered if you are going to cry "personal attack" if the reply doesn't suit you.
    It was a lame personal attack because that is all it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And I think it was Conservative or American who said a few post back that the Liberals just don't understand because they think other people hold the same beliefs and value? What a joke. Do you even realise that there are people out there who think that Bush was a "strongmen and gangsters", and that the US is a bully?
    I'm fully aware of the completeness of stupity possible only to people able to vote for Democrats.


    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Hell it's what most terrorists tell themselves everyday. They are just fighting the big bad hypocritical tyrant of the world. By their standard they are conducting "morally justifiable" attack on the US. And according to your reasoning, why should they be stopped?
    For two excellent and irrefutable reasons that trump any possible motive those animals might have:

    My two daughters.

    Don't like that? Go stand in line on the terrorists' side.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    And who should stop China from doing the same thing - the US, WWIII? See the problem with conducting foreign policy "by [your] standards"?
    Meanwhile, since it was already explained to you that China is a strongarm nation, not a legitimate government, any legitimate government, including the US, has the moral authority and justification required to intervene - IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO.

    I have no problems when foreign policy is conducted by my standards.

    If it was:

    the United States would be consuming it's own oil, minding it's own business, and focusing on freedom.

    Because you people have elected nothing but incompetents since 1988, the mess in the world is your fault, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by nonpareil View Post
    Or maybe you're just a great camedian. That would be funny.
    No, I'm not from Montreal.

    I was born in New York.

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