Page 22 of 38 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 373

Thread: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

  1. #211
    Sage
    Conservative's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Houston, TX
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:25 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    67,264

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Are you talking about Iraqis who claimed the name Al Qaeda in order to get some support? Or the foreign element, small as it was, who mostly had no connections to any terrorist organization prior to going into Iraq? If you manufacture some to kill, while not really attacking the people who attacked you, it's a mistake.
    So you are saying that no al Qaeda were killed in Iraq? I suggest a little better research before posting. While at it explain to me why Bin Laden Claimed that Iraq was the central front in the war against the west?

    Consider what bin Laden said about the importance of the war in Iraq in December 2004:

    "I now address my speech to the whole of the Islamic nation: Listen and understand. The issue is big and the misfortune is momentous. The most important and serious issue today for the whole world is this Third World War, which the Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic nation. It is raging in the land of the two rivers. The world's millstone and pillar is in Baghdad, the capital of the caliphate.

    The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries; the Islamic nation, on the one hand, and the United States and its allies on the other. It is either victory and glory or misery and humiliation. The nation today has a very rare opportunity to come out of the subservience and enslavement to the West and to smash the chains with which the Crusaders have fettered it."

    I thought Saddam Hussein was a secular ruler and hated by Bin Laden.

  2. #212
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I can to do this. No, we didn't.
    Your opinion, nothing more.

  3. #213
    Guru
    Morality Games's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Last Seen
    05-24-16 @ 10:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,733

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    And maybe not even then.
    Given the threat posed by whackos (be they leaders of states or non-governmental entities) with WMDs, especially nuclear WMDs, to not act pre-emptively against said whackos is criminally irresponsible.
    Saddam Hussein wasn't a whacko. He had a clear and distinct view of the only strategy to keep himself in power against internal enemies (the Kurds), regional enemies (Iran) and international enemies (NATO) and generally did his best to execute that strategy. The only "whacko" thing he did was invade Kuwait, and he could not have predicted NATO's severity; he probably thought he had some political capital with the West and that, even if the West did not allow him to occupy the country, he would still get some kind of gain from the venture. It was hardly dissimilar to Russia invading Georgia or any other number of conflicts which occur between small countries in the developing world, most of which NATO does not react to. In this case, there were certain political currents in Western nations (especially in the United States) that Saddam failed to anticipate. After Kuwait, he kept a pretty low profile, rejecting overtures from radical Islamic terrorist groups to become party to anti-Western plots, specifically because they could only provoke further hostility from NATO, which obviously overpowered him.

    Saddam was by no means a good man, but he did not formulate his plans irrationally.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 01-04-10 at 05:13 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  4. #214
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    So you are saying that no al Qaeda were killed in Iraq? I suggest a little better research before posting. While at it explain to me why Bin Laden Claimed that Iraq was the central front in the war against the west?

    Consider what bin Laden said about the importance of the war in Iraq in December 2004:

    "I now address my speech to the whole of the Islamic nation: Listen and understand. The issue is big and the misfortune is momentous. The most important and serious issue today for the whole world is this Third World War, which the Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic nation. It is raging in the land of the two rivers. The world's millstone and pillar is in Baghdad, the capital of the caliphate.

    The whole world is watching this war and the two adversaries; the Islamic nation, on the one hand, and the United States and its allies on the other. It is either victory and glory or misery and humiliation. The nation today has a very rare opportunity to come out of the subservience and enslavement to the West and to smash the chains with which the Crusaders have fettered it."

    I thought Saddam Hussein was a secular ruler and hated by Bin Laden.
    Saying none would be an absolute. It would only take one to make it false. I'm saying very few that weren't either Iraqis or people not associated with any terrorist group prior to coming to Iraq. This means our enemy invested very little in Iraq and we were never really fighting them.

    As for OBL's rhetoric, he wants to keep us tied up there. What else would he say. If he really wanted us gone, he have supported Bush. That would have made people think about voting for someone else. He have it peaceful there so we might leave. Instead, he plays us for suckers, realizes to few think it through. Manipulates useful idiots with just a few words.

  5. #215
    Sage
    Boo Radley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Last Seen
    11-22-17 @ 04:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    36,858

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Your opinion, nothing more.
    Nothing wrong with a supported opinion. There were no stockpiles of wmds, no working with Al Qaeda, no training Al Qaeda, no real sponsorship of terrorism (lets not get into rebuilding homes destroyed in Palestine), no imminent threat, inspectors on the ground, so the supportive evidence is on the side of my opinion. 4500 Americans, not to mention coalition forces, 100,000 civilians, and billions of dollars, for what?

  6. #216
    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Seen
    03-21-10 @ 08:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,668

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Show me where I have personally supported the surge in Afghanistan.
    Send me the link to the old Whistlestopper server, and I'll show you. Changing your mind one of your best talents, but, seen thru.

    I liked Scheuer's idea of simply going in on 9/12/01 and getting him (we knew where he was) and leaving.
    How about going on on 9/12/96 and getting him Michael??!! So Dr. Scheuer, let me get this straight. Your solution...given you're the ex desk chief for the CIA...is to go after him AFTER 9-11?

    For the love of God?

    As for actions like torture and other immoral and illegal acts, this is quite different than opposing any action in Afghanistan. In fact, it is quite dishonest to suggest that if you don't accept all actions, you don't support any.
    You opposed the imprisoning of enemy combatants on the battlefield, JD, it was in fact your position that these men should receive Constitutional protections. You're being disingenuous, JD, I do have a memory.

    Don't know who you are and you may well have wrong who I am. Who knows.
    You know exactly who I am and vice versa. Your famous wink smilie, the only one to bring up Scheuer the disgraced CIA desk Chief.

    It is also possible that new information and assessment led to a change in view.
    Oh I'll bet. You just remember that Oldschool hasn't moved...an iota. Still considers Gitmo a stroke of genius, still considers Lancet a joke. New info has come to light including no combat deaths in Iraq for example.....but no matter the new info....that you're using to change your mind...or he's using to change his.....my argument stands like Stonewall at Bull Run. As correct then as it is now.

    CIA and FBI weren't sharing.
    I suppose this no fault of the 96-99 OBL desk chief at the CIA?

    To get the 9/11 terrorist before they acted, as I understand it, would have only required those two to share information. It was the most likely thing that could have prevented it.
    And for the American public to realize we were at war. We'd ignored the USS Cole, US embassies, the first World Trade Center bombings, we'd hate air rage passengers get out of hand, we were sitting ducks...open for attack.

    He wasn't that deeply involved in it. Remember, reports are he was surprised when it happens. There was no country we could have invaded that would have prevented them from coming. Again, to my knowledge the only thing that had a chance was for the CIA and the FBI to speak to each other.
    This:

    "There was no country we could have invaded that would have prevented them from coming."

    right after this:

    "I liked Scheuer's idea of simply going in on 9/12/01 and getting him (we knew where he was) and leaving."

    So, we couldn't have invaded any country as Osama wasn't deeply involved.....but invading afterwards and snatching "him" up..the one not deeply involved...that idea you like?

    Now I'm positive who this is, contradicting your own arguments was a habit of only one author in that site...or in here. Happy New Year JD.

    On a side note, not too lengthy as the Mods get upset?

    Georgia Tech tough, good luck to Iowa.

    As well, a family member also a Falcon fan, this was your first back to back winning seasons, congrats. Too bad about the playoffs, next year probably.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

  7. #217
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    Saddam Hussein wasn't a whacko.
    By what measure?
    He was a whacko if for no reason other than he deliberately painted a picture of possessing WMDs and WMD programs so that the world would think he had them, even though he knew that he would be invaded because of it.

    So, his plan to retain power was to make us think he had the very thing that we were about to invade in order to remove.

    About the only way this is not insanity is if you think he thought that we weren't REALLY going to invade him.

    The only "whacko" thing he did was invade Kuwait, and he could not have predicted NATO's severity;
    That was gross miscaluculation, not insanity.
    Remaining in Kuwait after it was clear he was about to be forcibly removed?
    -That- was insanity.
    Saddam was by no means a good man, but he did not formulate his plans irrationally.
    On the contrary -- his actions illustrate just that -- in bouts, if not wholesale.

  8. #218
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Last Seen
    03-22-15 @ 02:36 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    17,343

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Nothing wrong with a supported opinion.
    That's not what you offer.
    There were no stockpiles of wmds
    Whch was determined post-facto.
    no working with Al Qaeda, no training Al Qaeda,
    Red herring
    No claims to that effect were offered as reason for the invasion.
    no imminent threat,
    None necessary, given the nature of the threat.
    inspectors on the ground
    Who were contunually and deliberately delayed, to the point of ther leader reaching the conclusion that Iraq had "not made the fundamental decision to disarm".
    so the supportive evidence is on the side of my opinion.
    Obviously not.
    4500 Americans, not to mention coalition forces, 100,000 civilians, and billions of dollars, for what?
    The liberation of Iraq and the certain removal of Saddam as a threat to the region and to the US. That's a -singificant- return on investment.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 01-04-10 at 05:26 PM.

  9. #219
    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Last Seen
    03-21-10 @ 08:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    1,668

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It continues the error, but most the damage is already done.
    Out troops experienceing record losses in Afghansitan, wasn't this OBL's plan that Obama now eats hook, line, and sinker.

    You being silly here doesn't help advance the discussion. He didn't declare the Fatwa in 98 over Iraq and no one claims he did.
    He doesn't mention Iran. His rage clearly over Iraq, he mentions it several times. You are still in error even though it's a new year.

    Believe it or not, something can already be in play and you can still affect it either positively or negatively.
    Not disputing this. The fact is, we invaded Iraq and Osama Bin Laden clearly didn't want us anywhere near Iraq, considered it immoral. This idea is wa s Xmas gift is a guess by Scheuer and yourself and it's a wrong guess. Supposition and guesses were always your process, JD, I could read you like a book and I obviously still can.

    When I get back to my other computer, I'll see if I still have it.
    You do that.

    As Afghanistan didn't work out as he hoped, it seems to have been a reasonable plan B for him.
    Seems to be reasonbable isn't proof, the fatwa I linked to solid proof. Osama didn't want us in Iraq and attacked us because of it. He chortled on about the decimation and destruction. His concerns were for our presence in the ME and especially Iraq and I quote:

    The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.
    See that...ferocious war...devastation...fragmentation? See that we we should have been content with the "protracted blockade(meaning we were already there blocking sea lanes and flying no fly zone enforcements. He didn't want us anywhere near Iraq and considered it "using the Peninsula as a staging post."
    It's all right there in black and white, JD.
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 01-04-10 at 05:29 PM.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

  10. #220
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Los Angeles
    Last Seen
    09-22-10 @ 04:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    11,430

    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm not sure I'm the one who diverted it. And I'm too lazy t go back and look. But knowing how we got here should inform us on how we see the possible solutions moving forward. As long as anyone (or more accurately, enough people) seriously believes Bush did the right thing, we run the risk of repeating the same mistake again.
    Bush didn't do the right thing.

    However, since once we were committed the right thing to do was stay the course and finish the project, the net result of Bush's actions was an improvement over the prior situation and hence in the end it can be argued that what he did was right.

    Can you tell us if your Messiah is ever going to do anything right?

Page 22 of 38 FirstFirst ... 12202122232432 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •