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Thread: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I think that is what Scheuer meant by calling Iraq a Christmas gift for OBL.
    Scheuer also said that in the war on radical Islam we need to wage a ruthless unapologetic war. He also said that if our current course is not altered, which we see no signs of it being changed, then we have no choice but to "proceed with relentless, brutal, and, yes, blood-soaked offensive military actions until we have annihilated the Islamists who threaten us, or so mutilate their forces, supporting populations, and physical infrastructure that they recognize continued war-making on their part is futile."- Imperial Hubris, p. 85.

    It seems we have passed the point of no return on that one.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    Scheuer also said that in the war on radical Islam we need to wage a ruthless unapologetic war. He also said that if our current course is not altered, which we see no signs of it being changed, then we have no choice but to "proceed with relentless, brutal, and, yes, blood-soaked offensive military actions until we have annihilated the Islamists who threaten us, or so mutilate their forces, supporting populations, and physical infrastructure that they recognize continued war-making on their part is futile."- Imperial Hubris, p. 85.

    It seems we have passed the point of no return on that one.
    Yes, he did. But he also said to be smart, and to discuss if this is a war we want. He suggested a debate we never had.

    Later, I'll break my copy out and make sure I quote the next response accurately before I go on.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Iraq never had to be our destination. We never, ever had to invade and occupy that country. The rest I agree with. But it was foolish and only helped our enemies to invade Iraq.
    Iraq was our destination. And once there, the "never, ever" whining just becomes deadly to US troops, undermines the President's ability to wage war, and Happy New Year, JD3.

    Scheuer wrong on several counts, if OBL's purpose or goal was to get US troops in country, he certainly didn't think it would be Iraq. Wouldn't Obama's surge of 30,000 more troops bringing our total to 100,000 in Afghanistan and expanding the war into Pakistan be OBL's Christmas gift, wouldn't more and more US troops in the Afghan quagmire have been his goal? His entire Fatwa, his declaration of war was based on Iraq to begin with, he abhorred the thought of Iraq being invaded, occupied, and used as a launching pad for further 'invasions' by the infidels.

    But I'll bet you lunch...Boo...that you support Obama's surge into Afghanistan. Correct?

    Scheuer also head of the CIA's OBL desk between 1996-1999. The years OBL was sneaking 19 terrorists into the US, training right under our very noses, and then attacked on 9-11. The travel by these terrorists back and forth, the many instances of departments that missed information, everyone on this site should realize Scheuer is one of the main culprits as far as our complete miss on 9-11. Scheuer isn't qualified to run a fever after this colossal incompetence, he should be railroaded out of America, asked not to return. His hindsight now, I really don't know why anyone would take him seriously.

    Michael F. Scheuer, who from 1996 to 1999 led the Central Intelligence Agency unit that tracked Mr. bin Laden, said the State Department documents reflected a keen awareness of the danger posed by Mr. bin Laden's relocation. "The analytical side of the State Department had it exactly right - that's genius analysis," he said in an interview when told of the declassified documents. But Mr. Scheuer, who wrote a book in 2004 titled "Imperial Hubris," under the pseudonym "Anonymous," that was highly critical of American counterterrorism strategies, said many officials in the C.I.A.'s operational side thought they would have a better chance to kill Mr. bin Laden in Afghanistan than they did in Sudan because the Sudan government protected him.
    Wrote the book under the pseudonym, "Anonymous?" Now, there's a man who is proud of his accomplishments and thus writing a book about it!

    This genius analysis...that we would have a better chance in Afghanistan than in the Sudan? Because the Sudanese government was protecting him? Were not the Taliban protecting him as well? Seems to me..in hindsight..that Osama was out of the frying pan and into the fire, why would we think it would be easier to go into Afghansitan and kill him? Isn't Afghanistan rather than the Sudan the historical location of insurgencies and tribal chaos that saw the Soviets and British defeated, is was easier to kill him in Afghanistan? And...do you still feel this was genius analysis?

    "The thinking was that he was in Afghanistan, and he was dangerous, but because he was there, we had a better chance to kill him," Mr. Scheuer said. "But at the end of the day, we settled for the worst possibility - he was there and we didn't do anything.
    That's right you didn't do anything. And when someone finally did, you became critical and blamed everyone else. Why not shred your citizen papers and go live in Afghanistan yourself, you're the danger to this nation. easier to kill in Afghanistan...yeah...how'd that work out Mike? Easier to kill in the mountainous Afghan Pakistan border regions that these Cats have been living in for centuries?

    Brilliant. I remember reading another article by Scheuer, I'll try to find it, I brought it up with JD...er....Boo quite some time ago. Scheuer was claiming Iraq had given al-Qaeda access to the Arabian Peninsula. Yemen, Saudi Arabia, where the Cole was bombed, where embassies were attacked..long before Iraq was invaded by W. This Scheuer couldn't manage a bowel movement after a night of heavy drinking, he isn't qualified to walk my dog.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/17/in...sama.html?_r=1
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Iraq was our destination. And once there, the "never, ever" whining just becomes deadly to US troops, undermines the President's ability to wage war, and Happy New Year, JD3.

    Scheuer wrong on several counts, if OBL's purpose or goal was to get US troops in country, he certainly didn't think it would be Iraq. Wouldn't Obama's surge of 30,000 more troops bringing our total to 100,000 in Afghanistan and expanding the war into Pakistan be OBL's Christmas gift, wouldn't more and more US troops in the Afghan quagmire have been his goal? His entire Fatwa, his declaration of war was based on Iraq to begin with, he abhorred the thought of Iraq being invaded, occupied, and used as a launching pad for further 'invasions' by the infidels.

    But I'll bet you lunch...Boo...that you support Obama's surge into Afghanistan. Correct?
    telling the truth hurts more than putting them needlessly in harms way? I doubt that.

    And you're right. OBL did not think it would be Iraq. He wanted it to be Afghanistan. That didn't pan out well. However, as Scheuer noted, Bush gave him a second bite at the apple with Iraq. It was foolish.

    Now, as for iraq and Afghanistan, Afghanistan made since. You can not find anywhere where I opposed Bush in Afghanistan. Now, was it real smart? No. Nation building is a huge problem, but OBL was in Afghanistan. So, it made some sense. Obama is right to focus there. But, no I don't support the surge there. It is the same problem of trying to nation build instead of practically addressing the problems.

    Scheuer also head of the CIA's OBL desk between 1996-1999. The years OBL was sneaking 19 terrorists into the US, training right under our very noses, and then attacked on 9-11. The travel by these terrorists back and forth, the many instances of departments that missed information, everyone on this site should realize Scheuer is one of the main culprits as far as our complete miss on 9-11. Scheuer isn't qualified to run a fever after this colossal incompetence, he should be railroaded out of America, asked not to return. His hindsight now, I really don't know why anyone would take him seriously.
    I think you misunderstand his job. He criticized Clinton for a reason. He did not make command decisions, but we did know such an attack was coming. The information and warnings were given. ANd if the FBI and CIA had talked to each other, 9/11 might well have been prevented. Remember, the conclusions about pre-9/11 were not that invading or killing anyone would have prevented 9/11, but that merely allowing agencies to share information might well have.

    Wrote the book under the pseudonym, "Anonymous?" Now, there's a man who is proud of his accomplishments and thus writing a book about it!

    This genius analysis...that we would have a better chance in Afghanistan than in the Sudan? Because the Sudanese government was protecting him? Were not the Taliban protecting him as well? Seems to me..in hindsight..that Osama was out of the frying pan and into the fire, why would we think it would be easier to go into Afghansitan and kill him? Isn't Afghanistan rather than the Sudan the historical location of insurgencies and tribal chaos that saw the Soviets and British defeated, is was easier to kill him in Afghanistan? And...do you still feel this was genius analysis?
    He was an active agent at the time. He could not give his name. He later resigned because he felt so strongly about this and has spoken publicly repeatedly.

    That's right you didn't do anything. And when someone finally did, you became critical and blamed everyone else. Why not shred your citizen papers and go live in Afghanistan yourself, you're the danger to this nation. easier to kill in Afghanistan...yeah...how'd that work out Mike? Easier to kill in the mountainous Afghan Pakistan border regions that these Cats have been living in for centuries?

    Brilliant. I remember reading another article by Scheuer, I'll try to find it, I brought it up with JD...er....Boo quite some time ago. Scheuer was claiming Iraq had given al-Qaeda access to the Arabian Peninsula. Yemen, Saudi Arabia, where the Cole was bombed, where embassies were attacked..long before Iraq was invaded by W. This Scheuer couldn't manage a bowel movement after a night of heavy drinking, he isn't qualified to walk my dog.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/17/in...sama.html?_r=1
    I don't follow your point. Was Scheuer given the power to make decisions one who to kill? Largely you don't seem to understand the role analysts and decision makers.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    However, as Scheuer noted, Bush gave him a second bite at the apple with Iraq. It was foolish.
    With all the whining OBL does about the presence of infidels in Muslim lands how much does he really enjoy, how much of a "gift" is it, having infidel armies crusading all over Iraq and Afghanistan implementing Western style governance and civil society?
    Last edited by ScummyD; 01-03-10 at 02:47 PM.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    With all the whining OBL does about the presence of infidels in Muslim lands how much does he really enjoy, how much of a "gift" is it, having infidel armies crusading all over Iraq and Afghanistan implementing Western style governance and civil society?
    They were doing that without him having the ability to hurt us near as much. By invading, we prove him right in his claims of what we would do, and he had give us a bad taste in our mouth. Without this, things would have continued with him only able to something sporadically. If he is successful, and makes it uncomfortable enough, he gains much more than he ever would had we not come over.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Charles Martel sounds like Oldschool.

    And about OBL and Bush's gift. . .the fact remains that there is now a constitutional republic of sorts in Iraq where there wasn't one before. Same in Afghanistan. The very antithesis of what OBL desires. I don't any reason to believe that he sees it as a gift even if he has been able to see more Americans killed. As the days go on the roots of civil society only grow stronger; something OBL is likely never going to be able to remove in Iraq. Scheuer's argument on this front is weak.
    Last edited by ScummyD; 01-03-10 at 03:01 PM.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by ScummyD View Post
    Charles Martel sounds like Oldschool.

    And about OBL and Bush's gift. . .the fact remains that there is now a constitutional republic of sorts in Iraq where there wasn't one before. Same in Afghanistan. The very antithesis of what OBL desires. I don't any reason to believe that he sees it as a gift even if he has been able to see more Americans killed. As the days go on the roots of civil society only grow stronger; something OBL is likely never going to be able to remove in Iraq. Scheuer's argument on this front is weak.
    This isn't magic. It doesn't change the harm done, or justify the cost someone else paid. Many overestimate how much democracy matters to OBL (who wanted Saddam out as much as we did) and his side. And overestimate just how much freedom and improvement the Iraq people are actually seeing.

    So, while I wish them well, that will be up to the Iraqis, who have to deal with the pain we brought them and hopefully make something out of all the destruction, eventually.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    This isn't magic. It doesn't change the harm done, or justify the cost someone else paid. Many overestimate how much democracy matters to OBL (who wanted Saddam out as much as we did) and his side. And overestimate just how much freedom and improvement the Iraq people are actually seeing.

    So, while I wish them well, that will be up to the Iraqis, who have to deal with the pain we brought them and hopefully make something out of all the destruction, eventually.
    Just a few "minor" points that you either forgot about or simply want to ignore. Now I could go on but why?

    Kay on Today: "It Was Absolutely Prudent to Go to War Against Saddam"

    This is David Kay, head of the Iraq Survey group

    The Today Show

    Kay: "It wasn't only the US who came to that conclusion. The French, Germans, and UN all thought Saddam had WMDs." It was inaccurate in terms of the reality we found on the ground now, but it was accurate in terms of the intelligence at the time.

    Saddam was a DESTABILIZING element in the Middle East and Central Asia.
    Saddam did have a history of AGGRESSION against his neighbors (who were probably the happiest to see him go and who really in the end cooperated with the coalition).
    Saddam did give SANCTUARY TO TERRORISTS...both Abu Abas and Abu Nidal.
    Saddam did MUTILATE his people. Cut their ears off and pulled their tongues out.
    Saddam did TORTURE his people who opposed the Baath party and his tyranny.
    Saddam did MURDER his people as we now know from the mass graves.
    Saddam did Gas his own people as is well documented by the horror experienced by the Kurds Saddam did MURDER his people as we now know from the mass graves.
    Saddam did OPPRESS those faiths who differed with his Sunni pals. He wasn't the paragon of secular behavior that his appeasers make him out to be.
    Saddam represented the worst of ISLAMO/FASCISM and supported terrorists in Palestine
    Saddam ATTACKED Israel with scud missiles in the Gulf War just on principle and continued to be a significant obstacle to rational thought among Arabs regarding a rational solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict.
    It is not a coincidence that the recent peace initiative has come on the heels of his removal.
    Saddam was a first class fascist just like Hitler and he had to go. The world is better off.
    Saddam did provide funding for suicide bomber families
    Saddam was indicted by the Clinton Justice Department along with Bin Laden
    Saddam was on the terror watch list throughout the 90’s
    Saddam Hussein received billions in the oil for food scandal and used it to fund terrorism
    Saddam Hussein violated every UN resolution and then failed to abide by 1441
    Saddam Hussein helped create the Iraqi Liberation Act of 1998


    Putin Says Russia Warned U.S. on Saddam, Russia warned the United States on several occasions that Iraq's Saddam Hussein planned "terrorist attacks" on its soil, President Vladimir Putin said Friday.

    "After the events of September 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services several times received such information and passed it on to their American colleagues," he told reporters.
    The Kremlin leader, who was speaking in the Kazakh capital, said Russian intelligence services had many times received information that Saddam's special forces were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States "and beyond its borders on American military and civilian targets."


    Mohammed Atta trained in Iraq. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi is in Iraq, Hamas, Hezbollah and Fatah, FUNDED From IRAQ, Al Qaeda Terrorist Camp in Iraq, but apparently Saddam was simply a VICTIM Of the West's Imperialism, right and not a terrorist?

    By NILES LATHEM

    September 8, 2004 --

    WASHINGTON — France, Russia and China supplied Saddam Hussein with missiles, arms, defense technology and spare parts before — and after — the start of the Iraq war, an explosive new book claims.

    In the book, Washington Times reporter Bill Gertz cites a slew of illegal covert arms deals between Saddam and several countries that opposed the U.S. invasion in the months before and after the start of war in March 2003.

    The book, "Treachery: How America's Friends and Foes Are Secretly Arming Our Enemies," cites secret Pentagon and CIA reports and interviews with top U.S. defense and intelligence officials.

    Gertz claims that many of the weapons sold to Iraq in this critical time frame — and in violation of U.N. embargoes — were used by Ba'athist terrorists against U.S. forces after the fall of Saddam.

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    Re: Obama considering military strikes after Christmas Day aircraft plot

    Misinformation. Most thought Saddam had some left over wmds, not that he was growing and gathering as Bush claimed. And Atta did not train in Iraq.

    German intelligence officials say they have evidence that the suspected ringleader of the 11 September terrorist attacks trained in Afghanistan in 1999 and 2000, according to a US newspaper report.

    BBC NEWS | Americas | Atta 'trained in Afghanistan'

    The Habbush letter, or Habbush memo, is a handwritten message dated July 1, 2001, which appeared to show a link between Al Qaeda and Iraq's Saddam Hussein government. It purports to be a direct communication between the head of Iraqi Intelligence, General Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, to Saddam Hussein, outlining mission training which Mohammed Atta, one of the organizers of the September 11 attacks, supposedly received in Iraq. The letter also claims that Hussein accepted a shipment from Niger, an apparent reference to an alleged uranium acquisition attempt that U.S. President George W. Bush cited in his January 2003 State of the Union address.

    The letter has been widely considered a fabrication since it was first made public in December 2003. In 2008 journalist Ron Suskind claimed that the White House ordered the CIA to create the forgery. Two of Suskind's sources denied having knowledge of anyone in their chain of command ordering the forging the letter[1]. Former CIA officer Philip Giraldi alleged that the Pentagon was behind the forgery. The controversy that erupted as a result of Suskind's allegations has so far led to an investigation by the House Judiciary Committee.[2]

    (snip)

    Doubts

    Investigative journalist Michael Isikoff spoke with current and former US officials, including an Iraqi document expert who was at that time reviewing thousands of Operation Iraqi Freedom documents, all of whom deemed the letter a probable fabrication.[9] "The problem with this, say U.S. law enforcement officials, is that the FBI has compiled a highly detailed time line for Atta's movements throughout the spring and summer of 2001 based on a mountain of documentary evidence, including airline records, ATM withdrawals and hotel receipts. Those records show Atta crisscrossing the United States during this period—making only one overseas trip, an 11-day visit to Spain that didn't begin until six days after the date of the Iraqi memo."

    Isikoff continued: "Ironically, even the Iraqi National Congress of Ahmed Chalabi, which has been vocal in claiming ties between Al Qaeda and Saddam's regime, was dismissive of the new Telegraph story. 'The memo is clearly nonsense,' an INC spokesman told Newsweek."

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habbush_letter]Habbush letter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]


    As for Kay:

    On 23 January 2004, the head of the ISG, David Kay, resigned his position, stating that he believed WMD stockpiles would not be found in Iraq. "I don't think they existed," commented Kay. "What everyone was talking about is stockpiles produced after the end of the last Gulf War and I don't think there was a large-scale production program in the nineties." In a briefing to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Kay criticized the pre-war WMD intelligence and the agencies that produced it, saying "It turns out that we were all wrong, probably in my judgment, and that is most disturbing." [1] Sometime earlier, CIA director George Tenet had asked David Kay to delay his departure: "If you resign now, it will appear that we don't know what we're doing. That the wheels are coming off."[1]

    [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Survey_Group]Iraq Survey Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    As for your list. Saddam had been neutered for years. He was not a treat at the time of the invasion. Nor was he doing anything that would justify the cost.

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