- Joined
- Dec 23, 2009
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- 322
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- Here be Dragons
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- Political Leaning
- Liberal
j-mac said:Hello Plato, Long time no banter. I believe that in our recent history we have taken steps to engage the Iranian dissent, however, we haven't ever done enough to stand behind them and offer much more than lip service. Obama is no better in this regard, and in fact may be worse, because he displays that he doesn't have the fortitude to do much more than straddle the fence, or display weakness.
So what does this mean? Seems like a gratuitous bashing of Obama to me. It's tiresome that discussions about Iran immediately degenerate into US partisan nonsense. What did Bush do? Well, I don't know because most of it would have been covert and possibly very good stuff, but his Axis of Evil speech was a kick in the bollocks for the reformists as it galvanized the nation against a foreign threat.
j-mac said:Christians didn't start this round. This came from Muslim radicals. It does no good to bash Christianity as some kind of willingness offering when your enemy could care less. Muslim radicals are running with free will, and the majority of so called 'peaceful' Muslims are keeping their mouths shut about it. You know what we call that when it concerns a crime committed? Compliancy and it also is a crime.
"This round"? What is this, a re-run of the crusades? So you agree with the Al Q propaganda on this? Who started what? Well a proper historical analysis would take a long time, but it seems clear that what is happening in the Middle East isn't "this round" but the outcome of a complex set of historic events. After imperialism, which made a mess of the whole place with power struggles between the Great Powers, probably the most significant was the Cold War, when secular anti-imperialists were opposed by Western governments because we were afraid of their Soviet sympathies. So we empowered feudal relics and mass murderers to succeed imperialism. Then there was Afghanistan, when it would have been a lot better to leave Stalinism in place there over the barbarity of our erstwhile allies (Osama being one). Then the Palestine/Israel mess, where we just fashioned a stalemate. Western poers have been in control of world politics for a long time. At the end of the day, if you want to analyze where the cause lies, it may not be easy, and it certainly wasn't foreseeable, but the ball of blame is firmly with the Western democracies for the whole quagmire that has spawned this evil. It's our world after all. Or it was.
j-mac said:"Reformist Muslims"??? Who might they be? Have we identified any that haven't been killed by the radicals? Who among Islam today is going to stick their neck out in order to bridge an Islamic appeasement toward the Western Infedels? Not one that I can see. So all you have really is Obama sitting at a table begging. Good plan.
This is just twaddle. More abusive Obama bashing. Just sad really that so much ju ju doll piercing is going on on the American Right. And an amazing projection of islam as a simple homogenous mass of people. If you want to see people sticking their necks out, just watvch what is happening in Iran when people are dying on the streets.
j-mac said:Really, do you have figures to back this up? What has been the trend since 2001? I think you pulled that one out of thin air.
was your refutation to this
Plato said:What I do know is that millions of Westerners travel and live in muslim countries every day without hostility.
Your response is very interesting. My reply here is without research. I pulled it out of my experience and knowledge of the world. I have in my life time traveled to four muslim countries: Turkey, Morocco, Tunisia and Malaysia. Not many actually, but with no hostility at all and I never felt in the slightest danger. In my opinion I am as safe in these countries (in some safer) than in London or on an airliner bound for the USA. Hundreds of thousands continue to travel to these destinations (and of course expats live in these places every day) all the time. Where else? My experience is very small. Well: Indonesia, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Abu Dubai, these are all countries which I know people personally who in the last year have been to these countries on holiday. The whole Middle East is full of Western expats. My statement seems so self evident that I wonder at the mindset that can airily dismiss it as an invention.
That must be the bomb 'em and get back home in time for dinner mindset. Is yours a perspective of a world where there is America, maybe a couple of othe rnations that you will begrudgingly call civilized, and then behind a big wall there is where the dragons live? When I reflect on terrorism, which as a frequent international traveller I often do, I am actually amazed at how few attacks there are. I mean how easy would it be for a fundmantalist in Morrocco to commit murder and get away with it? Or in Jordan? Or in Malaysia? Well it doesn't happen, despite the opportunity. Either because the terrorists are tiny in number, or the government in these islamic countries protects the foreigner according to the law. (It's clearly both). News j-mac. There are no dragons any more beyond the borders of the USA.
j-mac said::slapme:Fail! A prime example of how self loathing liberals just have to blame America itself for being attacked by radical Muslims on 9/11. What a crock of shi'ite! Tell me Plato, while we are prostrating ourselves in front of our enemy, shall we bare our necks as well to offer them unfettered access? Because after all we are the problem right? I mean if we hadn't forced them to attack us and all....:roll::cuckoo:
This is why it's long time no banter. Because of this puerile horsecrap. It's difficult if you see the world as cowboys and injuns isn't it? Simple good versus evil. Nuance - what's that? If you leave your house unlocked in a big bad city and there is a burglary are you part of the reason? Of course you are. And you should be advised to learn from that. Does this exonerate the burgalr? Of course not. He should go to prison. See if you can get your head around that analogy. The only people who argue that American deserved it are left wing extremists like Chomsky and the supporters of Chavez. You should know from our WS history how much venom they have poiured on me when I have taken them to task. So this is just an easy, lazy abusive flamebait isn't it j-mac. As is your persistent blockheaded good versus evil paradeigm on life, where everything is two dimensional. there are people like you...and their are liberals, which are the same as commies, which are the same a atheists...
j-mac said:Ah yes, so your enemy in this struggle, is not with those that killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11 but rather, from within against those that don't believe as you do that you need to appease. Ain't that just great! :doh
Which gets you to this kindergarten abuse.