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Thread: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

  1. #461
    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    So your going to profile everyone?
    You finally get it.

    This individual was known to US Immigration as a risk and they were planning to pull him aside when he landed in Detroit.
    This individual Sir, never should have been permitted on that plane to land in Detroit, he should have been profiled and pulled aside before he boarded. You seem to mis this.

    I didn't say profiling doesn't work.
    Good, I would hope as you admit it works, that everyone would be included.

    You are right in pointing out that Israelis get their intelligence better organized.
    They profile everyone as well.

    They are no more devout muslims than the IRA Hunger Strikers (who committed suicide) were devout catholics.
    They aren't starving themselves in any jihad and you know it. Their religion wsn't what was inspiring them.

    That description by you is a slur.


    What is the point of you identifying this common denominator?
    A. It needed no indentification, it's as plain as the nose on anyone's face. B. Pointing it out exposes those that ridiculously deny it to be true.

    Ah don't start showing your symapthy for Irish terrorism now
    .

    Why not, I'm a Notre Dame fan.

    Of course this was religiously inspired.
    Show me the religious script used to inspire.opsie

    Jihad is justified in some cases. Just not in any of the circumstances we have today. Jihad means war. Muslims are entitloed to a just war defence where it is appropriate.
    No, it means holy war.

    This is ignorant bollocks. Which history? Chinese history? Russian history? the military history of Sparta, Greece or Macedonia? The Crusades? The Spanish inquisition? .
    Sparta and Greece held military advantage, the Crusades and inquisition have their place in history. Islam is the unchallenged champion on this matter, no other religion even comes close. Sorry Plato, facts are facts. Today as was reality centuries ago, Islam inspires men to throw themselves heedless of death into battle to fight the infidel. Where other religions have their exmaples and similarities, Islam stands alone. Facts are facts.

    What's this? An attempt at trolling?
    Neither a troll or an attempt. It was the shooting down of this ridiculous statement by you. "It is us liberals with our secular evil ways that are the real threat to them." You see, P, much of today's jihad is waged against the non-secular Israeli state. And the history of Islam you are completely unaware of reveals them waging war against non-secular christianity. No trolling attempt, just factually pointing out how clueless your argument is on this matter.

    So you would profile everybody.
    I already said that. And we already do it.

    What a laughable pile of garbage.
    Laughable garbage I actually think you know something about, however, this particular strat would have prevented alhaji from boarding. Not so laughable when it's effective, huh?

    I can offer some great books on Islam, from the time of Mohammeds death this religion spread by the sword, you do have some history books in your home?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

  2. #462
    Student Antagony's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    So your going to profile everyone?
    You finally get it.
    But then it's not profiling, is it? The whole point of profiling is to single out individuals with certain distinguishing features and/or behaviour patterns for special attention, being as they're deemed higher risk. If you give everyone special attention all you're doing is increasing the overall security level. That may or may not be a rational response to the threat of terrorism, but it isn't profiling.
    Last edited by Antagony; 01-17-10 at 08:40 AM.
    -Ant

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    -Voltaire

  3. #463
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    But then it's not profiling, is it? The whole point of profiling is to single out individuals with certain distinguishing features and/or behaviour patterns for special attention, being as they're deemed higher risk. If you give everyone special attention all you're doing is increasing the overall security level. That may or may not be a rational response to the threat of terrorism, but it isn't profiling.
    Yup. It starts off as a desperate way of blaming all muslims and it ends up as nothing...a mush notion....just specific, tailored, ad hoc intelligence taking a whole host of variables into account.

    Charles had only two ways to go. To descend inot bigotry or to end up here with a proposal for a "profiling" which is not really "profiling" at all. Being a reasonable chap he ended up with the latter. This guy had been profiled. The profile had not been acted on.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-18-10 at 05:28 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    But then it's not profiling, is it? The whole point of profiling is to single out individuals with certain distinguishing features and/or behaviour patterns for special attention, being as they're deemed higher risk. If you give everyone special attention all you're doing is increasing the overall security level. That may or may not be a rational response to the threat of terrorism, but it isn't profiling.
    So, when you yank this Cat out of line....as he's alone....he's 23 years old.....one way ticket....paid for in cash....coming from Yemen...with no luggage like the Shoe Bomber...Muslim religion...black enthnicity...then what is being profiled? All of these ingredients together and even minus a few should see this Cat searched at the airport, should have at least fostered some questioning.....but is that profiling by YOUR definition? I'm saying profile for every reason above, you tell me if I use every reason...it's not profiling?

    Wrong.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Charles had only two ways to go. To descend inot bigotry or to end up here with a proposal for a "profiling" which is not really "profiling" at all. Being a reasonable chap he ended up with the latter. This guy had been profiled. The profile had not been acted on.
    This guy wasn't profiled, don't attempt misinformation, had he been profiled he never would have boarded. Secondly, if you call taking this man being taken out of line for a thorough search based on any reason I listed above, "bigotry", then so be it. My point here...don't be afraid to be called a bigot. Do not fear cries of racism, discrimination, inconvenience, or security too harsh. Yank Alhaji out of line, drop trowsers, and if he's offended should he NOT be carry explosives....that's too bad. Hand his his skivvies back and tell him to have a nice day.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    So, when you yank this Cat out of line....as he's alone....he's 23 years old.....one way ticket....paid for in cash....coming from Yemen...with no luggage like the Shoe Bomber...Muslim religion...black enthnicity...then what is being profiled? All of these ingredients together and even minus a few should see this Cat searched at the airport, should have at least fostered some questioning.....but is that profiling by YOUR definition? I'm saying profile for every reason above, you tell me if I use every reason...it's not profiling?

    Wrong.
    Hang on, you gave Plato a broad list of people who should be profiled--your words: "DO not be afraid to pull a white, black, asian, latino, out of line for questioning"--to which he then asked, not unreasonably, "so you're going to profile everyone?" and then you, in a roundabout way, said 'yes.' That's what I was referring to. If you scrutinise everyone more closely, that's just increased security; whereas if you single out one particular group and the others get a cursory glance, that's profiling.
    -Ant

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
    -Voltaire

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    No, it means holy war.
    sorry, but where did you pull that from, a jihad is a spiritual struggle, you can declare a jihad on your alcohol problem, meaning you ask for gods grace to help you, or it can mean a war against an enemy nation, either way, it does not mean holy war, the crusade were a holy war, ordained by the pope, the jihad islamic extremists have going against america is not ordained by the majority of muslims, the extremeists simply wish to get rid of america because they're nutjobs, and the ignorant villagers that support them usually do because its american drones dropping bommbs around them

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    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by spud_meister View Post
    it does not mean holy war
    Jihad is resistance to something for a goal. Means struggle. An Islamic resistance is inspired by and motivated by religion. A religious struggle. And so you're not correct.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    Hang on, you gave Plato a broad list of people who should be profiled--your words: "DO not be afraid to pull a white, black, asian, latino, out of line for questioning"--to which he then asked, not unreasonably, "so you're going to profile everyone?" and then you, in a roundabout way, said 'yes.' That's what I was referring to. If you scrutinise everyone more closely, that's just increased security; whereas if you single out one particular group and the others get a cursory glance, that's profiling.
    Yup. I may be wrong about Charles. He seems to be locked into wanting to discriminate against muslims through "profiling" but when it comes down to how to do it effectively his argument turns to mush. On the other hand he has said, explicitly, not in a roundabout way, that he wants to profile everybody. He has failed to come up with any criterias as to how to manage "profiling". Should we pull all Nigerians out of the line? Should we pull all muslims out of the line? Should we pull all students out of the line? Should we pull all guys who have been denied access to the UK for lying on their immigration forms out of the line? Should we pull all people whose dad has reported them to the CIA out of the liine? Of course if you want to profile using ALL these criteria, then it is not profiling at all, but intelligence, where the US Intelligence organization FAILED. Profiling would be to select a number of these as a risk factor and act on those in every case. So which ones and in which combinations? These ones only refer to this individual case. Different criteria would apply to other suspects. Eventually the criteria and the combinations cover 80% of the world. This is an irrational proposal which its proponents always fail to explain the practicalities of. Even when you give them the license to be as discrimanatory and bigoted as they like they can't come up with a system. the biggest argument against porofiling is that it simply cannot be described in detail. You can't write the operating manual.

    So which nationalities would we pull out? Remember Reid was British so that's me and you every time getting selected. How do we know if someone's a muslim? Do we ask them? And then pull them out of the line? How do we know whether someone is disaffected? Oh yes...intelligence...not profiling. The whole thing is just a slogan by people like Charles. When it comes down to doing it, it is revealed as meaningless, as no rational criteria can be written for profiling that will be effective.

    The implication of the woolly bigotry (even if we are unclear about what Charles is saying, it is becoming increasingly clear that this is what it is in the general discussion) is that you pull someone out of line if they "look like" a terrorist; the terrorists are all standing in a line at an airport looking just like a terrorist would look; and we are letting them through because we are all pc liberals who secretly sympathize with Osama Bin Laden.

    This is the only sense I can make of the continuing garbage that people like Charles are posting. You can tell who is a risk group by...how...er....well...by looking at them. So let's just pull out all the weird looking dark people with swivelly eyes. The weakness of this position is so obvious but the Right just keeps on with these vague slogans asking for "profiling" without defining it and without explaining. It's a cover for racism and hate poilitics, pure and simple.

    It's clearly useful as a way of abusing liberals. Say something tough against muslims. When liberals point out that this is prejudiced garbage, you have, hey presto, got the platform to abuse liberals as terrorist lovers. It's sad really. Dumbing down discussion. But it's what goes down these days for deep thinking and political debate.

    Let's see if we can bring it down to their level. In the film Zohan which is a pretty crap feelgood movie, there is a part where Zohan is trying to get the Israelis and the arabs to live together in peace in New York. They are all standing around and the arabs complain that the Americans all hate them. Then Zohan speaks to the Israelis and says that the Americans hate them too. The Israelis all agreethat Americans hate them. The arabs say, shocked, "Why"? and the Israelis chorus back "Because they think we are you!". This is wrapped up by one arab saying to another, who is a ringer for OBL "you gotta admit Mustapha (I made the name up), even I wouldn't sit next to you on a plane". Everybody laughs. Of course racially many arabs and jews look the same. In terms of stereotypes, brown skinned muslims are just as afraid of a bearded muslim as white skinned people are. And any real terrorist is not going to arouse such fears. And everybody knows this.

    This is all fear and emotion, not reason, and fear and emotion produce bigotry. This is not the method which the professionals use. They know that having stereotypical images of their enemy is dangerous and a weakness, that smart enemies will play on this weakness. But it makes testosterone charged "something must be done" idiots feel better, and allows them to stop thinking too deeply in a quest to understand the complexity of how you deal with this threat.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-19-10 at 02:06 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Jihad is resistance to something for a goal. Means struggle. An Islamic resistance is inspired by and motivated by religion. A religious struggle. And so you're not correct.
    So it's a word which can be applied to someone fighting an alcohol problem? or resisting temptation?

    Can you tell me a war where the participants from Judeo-Christian nations haven't gone into battle thinking this has nothing to do with God? God looms pretty large in all the wars I know the UK has fought in. He is on our side against the forces of evil. His pastors are on the battlefield. Our armies are doing His will. And when we fight other Judeo Christian countries, he is on the other side too! Even in this war against Al Qaeda, is God not on our side?

    The truth is that in many places Christianity has been reformed, and blended with secularism, the antithesis of islamic fundamentalism. But in many cases it has not, and it resembles islamic fundamentalism in its certainty, intolerance and authoritarianism. The curse of the islamic nations is not religion, but antiquity in the form of an unreformed religion. They need the liberal revolution of freethinking, democracy, secularism and freedom. Just the very things that are despised by a homophobic, racist Christian right wing that shares a hatred of liberalism with their islamofacsist brethren.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-19-10 at 02:19 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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