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Thread: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    LOL wow. I give you the author of the pic actually changing it when its pointed out and you still claim its deliberate.

    Pretty sad.
    I only have your word for it that it was the original author who changed it. And even if he did, so what? All he's done is add another element to the joke. It was clearly never intended to be an accurate portrayal of the world; in fact its entire point was to portray the exact opposite.
    -Ant

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
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    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    I am absolutely not confused. Now perhaps cncerning Bush I am a tad confised on your stance, but, calling Cheney and Rumsfeld thugs and talking of satisfying their 'armchair Gen's sexual desires', didn't strike me as a Bush supporter.



    Nonsense. This pretend game where your argument is being taken wrong here isn't accurate. It's summed up rather easily in your previous post. "Fair enough. I realized that my proposal was one of covert influence. I think that is fair enough and would have to ask what the alternative is. That we demonize the 1.2 billion muslims in the world. Actually I never hear a specific program from the islamophobes."

    I asked you for suggestions. And we began to debate those. Your initial suggestion was broad as have your follow up suggestions. And I think your alternatives here are unsound...and so I mention that. Again, you're clearly asking here what the alternatives are. You then answer your own question with demonizing 1.2 billion people and them some comment about no specific alternative from "Islamophobes"(that I'm certainly certain you'll point out one when one is exposed.)

    And this is laughable. You're saying your proposals are "covert influence" and "vague", but then, any alternative is demonization. Please.

    Where am I from? Why? Do you want to launch an attack on that country?



    Congratulations, England one of my favorites. Spent an entire year there in Wimbledon as a matter of fact. Dreadful weather. Depressing to an older teen, unable to handle us, our parents set my brother and I off to Europe for three months before Universities started. I almost didn't make it back.

    We used my father's VW Bug, met 4 members of the opposite gender who were tired of the Eurail waits and stations. Two English chicks, two French. If VW bugs could talk...........anyway...



    I did read what you wrote. And I'm going to start a new thread as well. Not to bash your nation, I'm interested in analogies and comparisons.
    Ok Charles I accept you olive branch and acknowledge my churlishness. This is a holding post.

    Firstly just because I'm not a Bush supporter, I don't hate him. I would never vote for him but I think his second term was OK. He is a politician who manages through those he surrounds himself with. In Texas he used to do this by surrounding himself with people who disagreed and he would pick the best solution. He is a clever opportunist with no real vision or deep values - he leaves that for others. That's not so different from most politicians. He continued to do this as POTUS but he rejected the Blair/Powell acxis for the Bush/Cheney one. In his second term he corrected that error, getting rid of Rumsfeld, sidelining Cheney and appointing Rice. This led to the surge, a proper counter insurgency strategy and some success, which Obama is continuing.

    Bush 2 strategy was to follow the advice of the military, not Rumsfeld. Reading MSgts post on what marines are told I think this is a good idea. There is a contradiction that politicians need to resolve between following the professional opinions of the military and ensuring civilian support for military action. Clearly the military needs to be accountable. But often military practice from profiling to winning the hearts and minds of foreigners, will be done in a non pc (from either perspective) way and will work. Those with a political agenda will misjudge and poorly calibrate, more often than not.

    As for the other points, they are complex and not really suitable for tit for tat polemic. I will think about how to set these up for discussion in the future. What I do think is an important base though is to stop demonizing muslims. That doesn't mean I am not hostile to extremist islam becaise I am, but the solution to security lies more in intelligence than body cavity searches. rpofiled or not. Intelligence doesn't come from a community under hostile seige.

    As for moderate mislims I came across this one today:

    Abdurrahman Wahid obituary | From the Guardian | The Guardian
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Antagony View Post
    I only have your word for it that it was the original author who changed it. And even if he did, so what? All he's done is add another element to the joke. It was clearly never intended to be an accurate portrayal of the world; in fact its entire point was to portray the exact opposite.
    exactly right my countryman.

    Loved the video.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Professor Charles Martel's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Ok Charles I accept you olive branch
    It's a carrot actually. Use it for negotiation, all of my olive branches have thorns and I didn't want you to get pricked. I keep the carrot in my back pocket for use in debate and banter with the opposite political persuasion. My other pocket has a big stick in it and when the carrot fails. I just bring the stick out. The carrot/stick diplomacy my preference.

    He is a politician who manages through those he surrounds himself with.
    Mamging through delegation happens to be a trait shared by many genius leaders as well, I can offer some great reads. Napolean, on of my favorites, Patton, Charles Martel probably my most favorite. All knew to delegate and surround themselves with doers and shakers.

    He is a clever opportunist with no real vision or deep values - he leaves that for others.
    Nearly lost his second election by sticking to those values, you're not accurate...not even close here.

    In his second term he corrected that error, getting rid of Rumsfeld, sidelining Cheney and appointing Rice. This led to the surge, a proper counter insurgency strategy and some success, which Obama is continuing.
    He launched Rumsfeld after the 2006 election. And chose the surge strategy amongst many other alternatives he was given, many many many...including the ENTIRE LEFT, both leaders in Congress, and the majority of the American People didn't want to surge in Iraq...remember? And Obama is continuing Bush's exact strategy in Iraq, this is true, remember, he ran on a campaign of "change", not continuing Bush policy. Plato Sir, you're debating with someone here as up on facts as you, stop pretending otherwise...or I'll take the carrot back.

    Those with a political agenda will misjudge and poorly calibrate, more often than not.
    No question about it, but...political agendas are a reality, we have civilian leadership of the military in this country. The leader of the Party(Obama or Bush or Kennedy or Nixon), is also Commander in Chief. It's up to that man to know the difference between politics and reality. And Bush...to his own political peril...made the proper decisions for Iraq. Remember, this new current CiC would have already been out of Iraq leaving God knows what for a reality.

    I will think about how to set these up for discussion in the future.
    You do that and please keep in mind my previous suggestion. Debate me as if I'm your equal, you'll find me less "difficult."

    What I do think is an important base though is to stop demonizing muslims.
    does pointing out the fact that ALL of these terror attacks have as a common denominator a devout Muslim carry any weight at all then? Did you...Plato...have any doubt who was responsible for the Christmas attempted bombing of an American airliner? Did you need to wait for religious affiliation? 23 years old......a Nigerian.....coming from Yemen......paying in cash......did you have to wait for al-Qaeda to take credit.

    No...you knew who it was right off. That profiling...or experience?

    That doesn't mean I am not hostile to extremist islam becaise I am.
    But...if you don't recognize this common denominator...if you're out there like our Homeland Sec Chief claiming the system worked...if yer out there like our Pres claiming this is an isolated act of extremism...if you're out there trying to pretend to know we're at war...but then want to try prisoners of that war in downtown NY.....then you cannot even claim to be hostile towards even extremist Islam. IF you cannot admit there is a much more powerful and influential presence on the whole of Islam and that this isn't a "few bad apples"

    As for moderate mislims I came across this one today:
    I come across them all of the time. They claim this is all a big misunderstanding as well. But....a Major in the army...teens from Wash DC suburb....23 year old well off Nigerian men....engineers from Saudi arabia...the 9-11 hijackers...those captured in New York, Florida, or even Canada plotting to attack infrastructure.....Richard Reid......Major Hasan.......from all walks of life, from much different Muslim arenas of influence, with drastically different childhoods and lifestyles.

    The priomary common denominator is they were ALL devout Muslims...now...is it shocking I'd take a look at such a common denominator? Would it be demonizing if I did? Would it be remiss if I didn't?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    It's a carrot actually. Use it for negotiation, all of my olive branches have thorns and I didn't want you to get pricked. I keep the carrot in my back pocket for use in debate and banter with the opposite political persuasion. My other pocket has a big stick in it and when the carrot fails. I just bring the stick out. The carrot/stick diplomacy my preference.
    Ok. I've got my shilelegh as back up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Nearly lost his second election by sticking to those values, you're not accurate...not even close here.
    And he learned from it and changed. Without an inept Dem candidate he would have lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    He launched Rumsfeld after the 2006 election. And chose the surge strategy amongst many other alternatives he was given, many many many...including the ENTIRE LEFT, both leaders in Congress, and the majority of the American People didn't want to surge in Iraq...remember? And Obama is continuing Bush's exact strategy in Iraq, this is true, remember, he ran on a campaign of "change", not continuing Bush policy. Plato Sir, you're debating with someone here as up on facts as you, stop pretending otherwise...or I'll take the carrot back.
    Not so. I seem to be debating with someone who knows his facts better. When I look into it, it seems that Bush gave into other pressure, not least a drubbing in the 2006 elections:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    In an unprecedented move in modern U.S. history,[60] eight retired generals and admirals called for Rumsfeld to resign in early 2006 in what was called the "Generals Revolt," accusing him of "abysmal" military planning and lack of strategic competence
    As I said, maybe the Right should look at the military leadership, including the instructions given to US Marines (which you are continuing to ignore).

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    No question about it, but...political agendas are a reality, we have civilian leadership of the military in this country. The leader of the Party(Obama or Bush or Kennedy or Nixon), is also Commander in Chief. It's up to that man to know the difference between politics and reality. And Bush...to his own political peril...made the proper decisions for Iraq. Remember, this new current CiC would have already been out of Iraq leaving God knows what for a reality.
    Not exactly, although I always agreed with Bush about the war. But maybe with hindsight (no WMD) it would have been better to have finished in Afghanistan fisrt. When it comes to courage, Bush tapped into an understandable jingoism in America following 911. Obama was more cool headed and it has to be said, more courageous. Had the liberation of Iraq gone like many of us who supported the war hoped (including Bush with his famous victory speech), Obama would have been finished for good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    You do that and please keep in mind my previous suggestion. Debate me as if I'm your equal, you'll find me less "difficult."
    I debate what you write. As an individual I am sure we could sink a beer together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    does pointing out the fact that ALL of these terror attacks have as a common denominator a devout Muslim carry any weight at all then? Did you...Plato...have any doubt who was responsible for the Christmas attempted bombing of an American airliner? Did you need to wait for religious affiliation? 23 years old......a Nigerian.....coming from Yemen......paying in cash......did you have to wait for al-Qaeda to take credit.

    No...you knew who it was right off. That profiling...or experience?

    The primary common denominator is they were ALL devout Muslims...now...is it shocking I'd take a look at such a common denominator? Would it be demonizing if I did? Would it be remiss if I didn't?
    This common denominator thing betrays a serious lack of understanding of basic mathematics. Yes 40/80 is the same as 20/40, but 40 is not the common denominator, 2 is. By your reasoning the common denominator could be that they are all men.

    It is an argument that demonizes muslims that you put forward, without a doubt. It is utter trash. Sorry if that gets your stick twitching. I have said that I am not against profiling. I just think it should be done by cool heads, who are unmotivated by religious hatred, and who remember that predictability in how you act is a weakness to a cunning and "nimble" enemy. Certainly a response to a bombing by blaming a lack of profiling is a partial and inadequate response in any books and underlines a different agenda from that of profiling per se: an agenda of revenge and hostility towards 1.2 billion people.

    What is the detailed proposal? That people whose dads have shopped them to the CIA and who have been refused entry to the UK for a dubious immigration application, should be profiled? Well I'm not against that. Or is it for all muslims to be treated separately.

    Let's take that last one because funnily enough the "profile all the muslims" people never go into that (usually it is just an excuse to vent hatred at a group they don't understand due to their inability to come up with any sensible agenda for dealing with the situation).

    How do you tell who's a mooslem? Well it seems like you have two choices:

    1. Make everyone carry an ID card with their religion certified by a minister (not sure how you'd go about it with the atheists) OR

    2. Just search all the black people

    Except you'd have to search people who might be from Xinjiang or the Balkans too, so....

    3. Just search everyone except white anglo saxon protestants with American passports

    Is that not it? Why are you so vague at saying how it is then?

    Of course your whole "common denominator" argument is nothing less than bollocks.

    Firstly, most muslims, including the one I cited as a reformer, would see the terrorists as apostate, or anti-muslim. And they say so. So they don't see them as devout muslims at all, but as crazed heretics.

    Secondly, many terrorists (such as the IRA) were devout Christians, according to themselves, but this diddn't stop them from blowing children to pieces in shopping malls. But some stupid people, many in America, were foolish and evil enough to support them. The same goes for protestant paramilitaries in Northern Ireland. Their justification was often biblical. But this does not implicate Christianity as a whole.

    Thirdly your approach demonizes all muslims by equating devoutness in their religion with murder. As has been pointed out only a tiny fraction of muslims engage in this, otherwise the whole global system of trade and international relations would collapse. Igniting a global civil war between muslims and Christians is an explicit Al Q aim. Why do you collaborate with them in this?

    This episode, it is now clear, is about a failure of intelligance on our part. That doesn't mean its our fault (the fault is always with the murderers) but it doea mean we have to get better. Demonizing muslims in the way that you do (and the US Marines do not) will lead to less intelligence and therefore less security.

    The key is to use hard and soft power appropriately. The stick needs to be used with the hardened terrorists (which is why I support the military campaigns) but the carrot is the superiority of our values, not least our tolerance, should be the basis of our soft power. This will reduce the streams in which the terrorists swim (per the US Marines intructions) and isolate the problem fanatics. It's not an either or but an understanding of counter insurgency warfare, which blends force with other measures in order to prevail. Gates and rice did much better than Bush and Rumsfeld in this, and Obama is continuing.

    Just look at Iran. The demonstrators march claiming the authority of Shi'ite islam over the traitorous leadership. That the grandson of the Prophet was murdered by an upstart. This is a slogan of tremendous religious power that works in favour of liberalizing Iran. The potential for a reformation of Shi'ite islam in Iran is enormous, particularly towards an accommodation with liberal democracy and modernity. Demonizing muslims, by claiming a correlation between devout islam and terrorism just weakens this. What do all the bombers have in commmon? That they stand opposed to the devout muslims who demonstrate in Iran against the regime.

    You talk as if religion is some sort of democratic centralist communist thing, where there are monolithic interpretations of scripture and all speak with one voice. Like a party, all voicing the same line and defending each other loyally. This is as absurd for islam as it is for Christianity. Religions are catholic, diverse, subjective and riven with schism and emnity. To simplify islam like this is not only blockheaded, but also self destructive.

    But I'm sure you know all that, what with being my equal and all that. So why do you post such drivel?
    Last edited by Plato; 01-06-10 at 05:38 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    Without an inept Dem candidate he would have lost.
    That's a guess on your part, he won with the war the front burner issue.

    Not so. I seem to be debating with someone who knows his facts better. When I look into it, it seems that Bush gave into other pressure, not least a drubbing in the 2006 elections:
    You're incorrect, he stood his ground and maintained his policies in Iraq, especially seeing it through, despite the political fallout. Facts are facts.

    I debate what you write. As an individual I am sure we could sink a beer together.
    I'm sure as well.

    By your reasoning the common denominator could be that they are all men.
    Show me where these men being devout Muslims isn't a common denominator.

    It is utter trash. Sorry if that gets your stick twitching.
    Calling it trash and priving it trash two different things. Perhaps my "stick would twitch" should your statement come with actual substance. It doesn't.

    I just think it should be done by cool heads, who are unmotivated by religious hatred, and who remember that predictability in how you act is a weakness to a cunning and "nimble" enemy.
    Yer gonna decide who is "unmotivatd by religious hatred?" Please.

    Of course your whole "common denominator" argument is nothing less than bollocks.
    It's dead on accurate. And there is a way you do this, you aren't afraid..number one..to pull this man out of line. He set off several red flags no one argues he never should have been permitted on that plane.

    Many nations speak right to you. Ask you questions, where are you going, where have you been. If you are the exact replica and situation as Alhafi..you are seriously cased and even searched.

    Rather than keep harping on my common denominator theme you cannot dismiss, provide substance. Show me where attacks from the ME on Americans or our allies that haven't the religion of Islam as a common denominator.

    Their justification was often biblical.
    Poppycock, the were not Christian extremists, no Christian teaching was inspiring to kill, the IRA were terrorists, not jihadists. Sorry.

    Thirdly your approach demonizes all muslims by equating devoutness in their religion with murder.
    It's an undeniable fact that this religion has been unequaled in its ability to send young men heedless of death into battle to kill the infidel in a number of different ways. Today, there are no Christian or Jewish Jihads. Sorry, I'm dead n correct, here.

    Igniting a global civil war between muslims and Christians is an explicit Al Q aim. Why do you collaborate with them in this?
    Bring it on. Their goals are that we leave Arabia and stop supporting Israel. To leave Iraq and end our influence on the ME. Who indeed is collaborating? Now, you can sit here and turn the other cheek and pretend its all gonna go away if you close your eyes and pray...I'm not that naive. Inaction our biggest enemy leading to 9-11.

    This episode, it is now clear, is about a failure of intelligance on our part.
    Failure of intelligence...and an initial error believing this an isolated incident, correct?

    but the carrot is the superiority of our values, not least our tolerance, should be the basis of our soft power.
    They hate your carrot and your values. They hate self determination and everything about it. You can soft power all you'd like, I think that got us attacked on 9-11 and while you claim Obama and crew are doing so well.....this is another example of extreme hate coming from this Jihad. Promise to cloise Gitmo, Cairo speech away telling them were not their enemy, what has it done? We seem to be under assault more today than yesterday, why is that?

    Just look at Iran.
    Yeah, look at em.

    But I'm sure you know all that, what with being my equal and all that. So why do you post such drivel?
    You can call truth and reality drivel, what you cannot do is prove me wrong. If the common denominator isn't there, prove it. Major Hasan...an Army Officer, 5 late teen Virginia lads, Alhaji the inderwear bomber who is raised wealthy, the Jordanian Doctor who detonates himself on a CIA base in Afghansitan, Osama Bin Laden, KSM, Richard Reid, The Doctor who drove his car into the English airport, Moqtada al-Sadr the Shia militia leader in Iraq/Iran, the Iranian Mullahs, Bashar Assad, Al-qaeda in Yemen, Abu Abbas, Abu Nidal, the list goes on and on, all walks of life, stretching several different nations, the one solid and always present comoon denominator. They are devout Muslims. They are involved in militant Jihad within the Islamic faith. It it's not so, cease with your tirades of inaccuracy and show me where this isn't true.
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 01-06-10 at 11:30 AM.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Show me where these men being devout Muslims isn't a common denominator.
    The common denominator argument is a fallacy. I have dealt with it. Deal with my extensive refutation of this fallacy. I am not going to repeat myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Yer gonna decide who is "unmotivatd by religious hatred?" Please.
    One of the few good points you make. I do prefer the decision to be made by military and security experts within the guidelines set by elected representatives. Not the baying mob or the tyranny of the majority. It is a compromise, though, that is the weakness of that position. But your solution? Again you are vague (something you accused me of). You refuse to answer the question. I gavce you three alterntaives for how profiling could work. Choose one or give me a fourth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    It's dead on accurate. And there is a way you do this, you aren't afraid..number one..to pull this man out of line. He set off several red flags no one argues he never should have been permitted on that plane.
    Is this your straw man. Of course with the intelligence we had on this guy he should have been pulled out of line? Are you starting to misrepresent my view because you find its so difficult to refute?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Many nations speak right to you. Ask you questions, where are you going, where have you been. If you are the exact replica and situation as Alhafi..you are seriously cased and even searched.
    I have the advantage on you being a non US citizen. US immigration ask you this. Every time. Even before 911 when security at airports (under a Republican regime) was a joke compared with the rest of the world (say Europe which had been reeling from terrorism, some of it American funded, for years).

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Rather than keep harping on my common denominator theme you cannot dismiss, provide substance. Show me where attacks from the ME on Americans or our allies that haven't the religion of Islam as a common denominator.
    Re-read your sentence. Who keeps repeating the "common denominator" fallacy? When you refute my arguments, instead of sidestepping them, I will respond.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Poppycock, the were not Christian extremists, no Christian teaching was inspiring to kill, the IRA were terrorists, not jihadists. Sorry.
    Not true, protestant terrorists for example were inspired by their medieval interpretation of the Revalation of St John that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon. The IRA believed themsleves to be involved in a just war against tyranny and supported by God in the same way that the American revolutionists did. They were fighting for their inalienable God given rights. Priests presided over their funerals as the military salues were given. Nearly all warriors claim their war to be holy and supported by God. Most muslims on the other hand belive that islamofascist terrorism is terrorism, not jihad, no matter how much you may misrepresent them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    It's an undeniable fact that this religion has been unequaled in its ability to send young men heedless of death into battle to kill the infidel in a number of different ways. Today, there are no Christian or Jewish Jihads. Sorry, I'm dead n correct, here.
    Unequaled when? Now? Probably. So what? In history? Back to school mate!

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Bring it on. Their goals are that we leave Arabia and stop supporting Israel. To leave Iraq and end our influence on the ME. Who indeed is collaborating? Now, you can sit here and turn the other cheek and pretend its all gonna go away if you close your eyes and pray...I'm not that naive. Inaction our biggest enemy leading to 9-11.
    It is a sure sign of losing the argument when you have to misrepresent (next time it will be "lie about") the views of those you are debating with. I haven't supported inaction. I have supported the explicitly detailed strategy of the US Marine Corps, something which you continue to be silent about. I ask again. What is your suggestion? I gave you three options. Choose one or give us a fourth. why so vague?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Failure of intelligence...and an initial error believing this an isolated incident, correct?
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    They hate your carrot and your values. They hate self determination and everything about it. You can soft power all you'd like, I think that got us attacked on 9-11 and while you claim Obama and crew are doing so well.....this is another example of extreme hate coming from this Jihad. Promise to cloise Gitmo, Cairo speech away telling them were not their enemy, what has it done? We seem to be under assault more today than yesterday, why is that?
    Yup. This is islamophobia. Of course the terrorists hate liberalism. You are right there. It is us liberals with our secular evil ways that are the real threat to them. The carrot is not for the terrorists. It's for the peoples of these countries. So your argument is that all muslims are terrorists. This is of course hate speech and bigotry. But no matter. Follow through your hate. Give us some concrete proposals as to how you are going to deal with these 1.2 billion potential terrorists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    You can call truth and reality drivel, what you cannot do is prove me wrong. If the common denominator isn't there, prove it. Major Hasan...an Army Officer, 5 late teen Virginia lads, Alhaji the inderwear bomber who is raised wealthy, the Jordanian Doctor who detonates himself on a CIA base in Afghansitan, Osama Bin Laden, KSM, Richard Reid, The Doctor who drove his car into the English airport, Moqtada al-Sadr the Shia militia leader in Iraq/Iran, the Iranian Mullahs, Bashar Assad, Al-qaeda in Yemen, Abu Abbas, Abu Nidal, the list goes on and on, all walks of life, stretching several different nations, the one solid and always present comoon denominator. They are devout Muslims. They are involved in militant Jihad within the Islamic faith. It it's not so, cease with your tirades of inaccuracy and show me where this isn't true.
    None of them were white Americans. Round up all the blacks and shoot them eh? Your common denominator argument has been refuted. Deal with my refutation or continue to fart this bigoted drivel.

    Why are you so vague about what you want to do with muslims? Is this deliberate?
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    The common denominator argument is a fallacy. I have dealt with it. Deal with my extensive refutation of this fallacy. I am not going to repeat myself.
    You don't need to repeat inabilities, if you can show me where this isn't reality do so. You can't, end of debate.

    I gave you three alterntaives for how profiling could work. Choose one or give me a fourth.
    I already gave you my fourth, but I will repeat myself. Any 23 year old paying cash for an international flight wiht recent travel to Yemen using a one way ticket....is going to get flagged and searched on my airline. Not being afraid to profile is indeed my fourth alternative. I already said, should ANY of the profiling I mentioned...including skin color, ethnicity, religion, faith, hair color, fingernails, heavyset, Arab, Persian, White, Blue, Green, alien, have positive effect...then use it. DO not be afraid to pull a white, black, asian, latino, out of line for questioning, ask direct face to face question, be suspicious and not have to give any excuses why. Give our security all the tools they needa dn the benefit of the doubt. Should they lock onto anyone, the excuse or reason needed to do so should be irrelevant.

    IT was the LACK of profiling or the FEAR of profiling that I believe harms us. Again, I use the Israelis as a stark example. Is there anyway Alhaji gets on an Israeli jetliner? Anyway at all?

    Are you starting to misrepresent my view because you find its so difficult to refute?
    What view? That "profiling doesn't work cause I said so" view? Please. I don't have to refute what's never been close to substantiated.

    I have the advantage on you being a non US citizen. US immigration ask you this. Every time.
    You've no advantage, I've been through Customs several times, used to fly Freddie Laker from England, yes they do ask these questions. Why did no one ask Alhaji?

    Who keeps repeating the "common denominator"?
    I do and it remains unrefuted. To do this one would have to give me a terrorist attempt or action out of the ME or Muslim world if you will, that doesn't have this common denominator. And then if you can dig that up, show me where in the examples I gave...notably the recent Pakistani 5, Major Hasan, Alhaji Fruit of the Loom, the CIA killings in Afghansitan, 9-11....show me where militant Islam didn't have a massive influence, show me which one of these Cats wasn't a devout Muslim.

    The IRA believed themsleves to be involved in a just war against tyranny and supported by God in the same way that the American revolutionists did.
    So, they based their opposition on their religion? Are you saying all the bombers and assassins in the IRA were religious fanatics?

    Sorry, the IRA stuggled against tyranny and occupation by the English...not the infidel. Many of the English and Irish they were killing were protestant and Catholic, religion wasn't their target. British involvement was the target and did the IRA bombers claim God told them to kill children? Give me examples of these bombers in the IRA Plato, it's time to dismiss your rubbish right now. Show me the common denominator there was religious fanaticism.

    They were fighting for their inalienable God given rights. Priests presided over their funerals as the military salues were given.
    Priesnts preside over ALL funerals....Plato. C'mon!

    Nearly all warriors claim their war to be holy and supported by God.
    Nearly all?

    Most muslims on the other hand belive that islamofascist terrorism is terrorism, not jihad, no matter how much you may misrepresent them.
    What? What is this on the other hand, you're comparing "warriors" above for the IRA and then "most Muslims" here. Nearly all Christians...Plato.....believe terrorism immoral, the warriors you speak to in the IRA were the exception. As has been pointed out and linked to, high percentages of Muslims believe Jihad warranted in some cases.

    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

    You'll want to be readin pages 53 and 54...and then restucture your argument. You'll note the numbers skyrocket for young Muslims and those living abroad.

    Unequaled when? Now? Probably. So what? In history? Back to school mate!
    Both today and back in history. The meteroic expansion of Islam was energy more than skill, religious fanaticism rather than a superior military, and a missionary zeal, an organized recruitment system built on the foundation of eternal life if your earthly one was lost slaying the infidel. No other religion has been able to inspire so many men to be completely heedless of death or personal danger. I'm well up on my history, Plato. Facts are facts.

    Yup. This is islamophobia. Of course the terrorists hate liberalism. You are right there.
    Right where?

    It is us liberals with our secular evil ways that are the real threat to them.
    Really...s well as the Jews and their secular way too, huh?

    So your argument is that all muslims are terrorists. This is of course hate speech and bigotry. But no matter. Follow through your hate. Give us some concrete proposals as to how you are going to deal with these 1.2 billion potential terrorists.
    It is a sure sign of losing the argument when you have to misrepresent.

    None of them were white Americans. Round up all the blacks and shoot them eh? Your common denominator argument has been refuted. Deal with my refutation or continue to fart this bigoted drivel.
    His name was John Walker Lindh. A white American. And a terrorist Taliban member. Baptized Catholic, born in Wash DC.

    Oops, your argument now not only refuted, but destroyed. This WAS a white American. Who went to Afghansitan, who attended a lecture by Osama the day before 9-11, was captured on the battlefield.

    So, if I was really for rounding up all blacks, we would have missed this Cat huh?

    Your garbage so easily destroyed, do your homework, Plato. Don't come in here unprepared, I'll roast your lame arguments like a Boxing Day London Broil.

    Why are you so vague about what you want to do with muslims? Is this deliberate?
    What's vague about this. I look harder at those traveling from Muslim countries. I don't profile by skin color or ehtnicity, I profile religion. I look where the passenger has traveled, when deciding on no fly lists I focus on Muslim nations, when I see a young man traveling alone, with a one way ticket...paid for in cash....with no luggage off to a 3 week stay in the US....I open the curtain and I ask Alhaji to step behind. If he sparks on about being targeted as he's a Muslim or Black, I tell him I don't care for his attitude and search him throroughly. I might not care about the Muslim behind him in line, the businessman on travel with a long list of voyages to the US and elsewhere on his well used passport...however....I might choose to searh him anyway.....and don't care for his opposition at all. Don't care if he accuses me of profiling, don't care about ctriticism or political correctness or fear. I ask all the questions a trained and experienced security employee wants to ask.
    Last edited by Charles Martel; 01-07-10 at 02:17 PM.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    I already gave you my fourth, but I will repeat myself. Any 23 year old paying cash for an international flight wiht recent travel to Yemen using a one way ticket....is going to get flagged and searched on my airline. Not being afraid to profile is indeed my fourth alternative. I already said, should ANY of the profiling I mentioned...including skin color, ethnicity, religion, faith, hair color, fingernails, heavyset, Arab, Persian, White, Blue, Green, alien, have positive effect...then use it. DO not be afraid to pull a white, black, asian, latino, out of line for questioning, ask direct face to face question, be suspicious and not have to give any excuses why. Give our security all the tools they needa dn the benefit of the doubt. Should they lock onto anyone, the excuse or reason needed to do so should be irrelevant.
    So your going to profile everyone?

    This is not profiling, it's using intelligence, which is what happens now and no-one opposes. Clearly you're confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    IT was the LACK of profiling or the FEAR of profiling that I believe harms us. Again, I use the Israelis as a stark example. Is there anyway Alhaji gets on an Israeli jetliner? Anyway at all?
    I can't belive how blockheaded this is. It was not the lack of profiling but the inability of allied agencies to talk to each other effectively. This individual was known to US Immigration as a risk and they were planning to pull him aside when he landed in Detroit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    What view? That "profiling doesn't work cause I said so" view? Please. I don't have to refute what's never been close to substantiated.
    Don't invent what I said again. I didn't say profiling doesn't work. I just don't think the 'search all the muslims" bigotry that goes on for a conservative response to this incident should be the basis of how we do profiling. But you don't suggest profiling. Profiling requires profiles to be brought up with a fixed number of variables. Your variables are endless. Interpreting them requires judgement. That is called intelligence which happens, or should happen now. You are right in pointing out that Israelis get their intelligence better organized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    You've no advantage, I've been through Customs several times, used to fly Freddie Laker from England, yes they do ask these questions. Why did no one ask Alhaji?
    You mean US citizens are asked why they are trying to enter the USA and how long they are staying for?

    They didn't ask Alhaji because he hadn't landed yet. As I said, they were planning to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    I do and it remains unrefuted. To do this one would have to give me a terrorist attempt or action out of the ME or Muslim world if you will, that doesn't have this common denominator. And then if you can dig that up, show me where in the examples I gave...notably the recent Pakistani 5, Major Hasan, Alhaji Fruit of the Loom, the CIA killings in Afghansitan, 9-11....show me where militant Islam didn't have a massive influence, show me which one of these Cats wasn't a devout Muslim.
    They are no more devout muslims than the IRA Hunger Strikers (who committed suicide) were devout catholics. That description by you is a slur. They didn't even comply with the trappings of devoutness. The 911 teams went out drinking alcohol before engaging in their murderous quests. Muslims as a whole, think what they did is contrary to the Quran because they killed innocents. I have heard many, many muslims say this. These are a tiny minority of muslims. I ask you again, what does this observation of your mean practically? Why are you so vague? Do you think all muslims should be searched? What is the point of you identifying this common denominator?


    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Sorry, the IRA stuggled against tyranny and occupation by the English...not the infidel. Many of the English and Irish they were killing were protestant and Catholic, religion wasn't their target. British involvement was the target and did the IRA bombers claim God told them to kill children? Give me examples of these bombers in the IRA Plato, it's time to dismiss your rubbish right now. Show me the common denominator there was religious fanaticism.
    Ah don't start showing your symapthy for Irish terrorism now. Terrorists would attack workers asking all the protestants or all the catholics to stand up. This would enable them to shoot the other side, purely on the basis of that person's religion. Of course this was religiously inspired. Much political inspiration is religiously inspired. Indeed it is a characteristic of islamofascism that religion inspries political greivances. I have made the arguments. Deal with them. The IRA hunger strikers who died in jail believed that they were dying for their God given inalienable right to self determination. Protestant terrorists believed that catholicism was a Satanic religion and Rome the Whore of Babylon. And children were collateral damage, which is the ismaofascist justification (that as innocents they will be in heaven so what's the problem).

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Priesnts preside over ALL funerals....Plato. C'mon!
    And all warriors except ideological atheists, claim that their cause is supported by God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    What? What is this on the other hand, you're comparing "warriors" above for the IRA and then "most Muslims" here. Nearly all Christians...Plato.....believe terrorism immoral, the warriors you speak to in the IRA were the exception. As has been pointed out and linked to, high percentages of Muslims believe Jihad warranted in some cases.
    Jihad is justified in some cases. Just not in any of the circumstances we have today. Jihad means war. Muslims are entitloed to a just war defence where it is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Both today and back in history. The meteroic expansion of Islam was energy more than skill, religious fanaticism rather than a superior military, and a missionary zeal, an organized recruitment system built on the foundation of eternal life if your earthly one was lost slaying the infidel. No other religion has been able to inspire so many men to be completely heedless of death or personal danger. I'm well up on my history, Plato. Facts are facts.
    This is ignorant bollocks. Which history? Chinese history? Russian history? the military history of Sparta, Greece or Macedonia? The Crusades? The Spanish inquisition? Have you read about the fanaticism of Elizabathan Catholic priests who plotted treason confident that if they were executed they would dine that night in heaven? Or the islamic scholars that preserved the Western scholars of yore for posterity as Christendom fell into a Dark Age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    Really...s well as the Jews and their secular way too, huh?
    What's this? An attempt at trolling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel
    It is a sure sign of losing the argument when you have to misrepresent.

    His name was John Walker Lindh. A white American. And a terrorist Taliban member. Baptized Catholic, born in Wash DC.

    Oops, your argument now not only refuted, but destroyed. This WAS a white American. Who went to Afghansitan, who attended a lecture by Osama the day before 9-11, was captured on the battlefield.

    So, if I was really for rounding up all blacks, we would have missed this Cat huh?
    I'll give you that pawn and take your Queen. So you would profile everybody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charloes Martel
    Your garbage so easily destroyed, do your homework, Plato. Don't come in here unprepared, I'll roast your lame arguments like a Boxing Day London Broil.
    You mean like something out of a tin?


    What's vague about this. I look harder at those traveling from Muslim countries. I don't profile by skin color or ehtnicity, I profile religion. I look where the passenger has traveled, when deciding on no fly lists I focus on Muslim nations, when I see a young man traveling alone, with a one way ticket...paid for in cash....with no luggage off to a 3 week stay in the US....I open the curtain and I ask Alhaji to step behind. If he sparks on about being targeted as he's a Muslim or Black, I tell him I don't care for his attitude and search him throroughly. I might not care about the Muslim behind him in line, the businessman on travel with a long list of voyages to the US and elsewhere on his well used passport...however....I might choose to searh him anyway.....and don't care for his opposition at all. Don't care if he accuses me of profiling, don't care about ctriticism or political correctness or fear. I ask all the questions a trained and experienced security employee wants to ask.
    Yeah, you said. But that's not profiling. That's intelligence. Having a million profiles is not profiling. And as you have said, many terrorists come fronm non muslim nations. So concentrate on the muslim nations. And the non muslim nations where muslims live too. That's like concentrating on everywhere.

    What a laughable pile of garbage. When we get to the substance all this hate speech is just an excuse for hot air. The practical suggestions mean nothing. I think the intelligence Services will get along just fine without your advice. They just need to do the basics right, talk to each other and keep one step ahead, instead of one step behind.
    Last edited by Plato; 01-07-10 at 03:21 PM.
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Here is a novel solution from

    Bigman Mike" aka The Kid from Brooklyn

    Bat Day
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA8x_YypfjA"]YouTube- The Kid From Brooklyn "Bat Day"[/ame]

    Terrorists
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B2zXD7S4FY"]YouTube- terrorists[/ame]
    You Can't Argue with a Sick Mind

    I'm a skinny little boy from cleveland ohio
    Come to chase your women and drink your beer

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