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Thread: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

  1. #411
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    It will be much more effective to engage with the Iranian opposition rather than trash all islam for example.
    Suggestions of this engagement? As if we don't have decades of engaging, as if the Europeans haven't tried. Please, in detail, what are your suggestions, what does it mean to engage

    On the wider question, I think that a more temperate understanding of islamic scrupture would help.
    Would you suggest their lead by example temperate understanding of Christian scripture...or the Declaration of Independence?

    Ok, I'll run with this...we get a lil more temperate and understanding...go on.

    I think we need to understand the reformist muslims more and engage with them, respecting their religion and encourgaing engagement. We can do this as we are very strong in defending our own Judeo Christian, post enlightenment, secular democratic values.
    1) Who exactly are the more reformist Muslims? Exactly? Aren't these the people Obama is afraid to "engage" in Iran on the excuse that he'll offend the less reformist Muslims?

    2) Even though I see Islamic relations initiatives internationally. And I do see and note reformist Muslims....neither you nor any of those strong in their secular democratic values, can deny the much less reformist Muslim is trying to engage us...on a daily basis. I would hope your suggestion here that we engage reformists, comes with the realization that the non-reformists very much are reaching out to touch us. today.

    So we can start with facing down islamophobia and the hate politics it comes with.
    Quit with the Obama answers, do what exactly? What do we do to face down "Islamophobia?" And where do you see hate politics? Your generalizations tough to debate, are they on purpose?
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

  2. #412
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by RyrineaHaruno View Post


    How about this fine looking young man Timothy Macviegh
    CrimeLibrary.com/Terrorists, Spies & Assassins/Terrorists


    Here are a bunch of cases were bombs were bought by a lot of different races, creeds, ectt.


    SO profiling by race doesn't work.
    What did I just state about exceptions? Profiling doesn't mean that others are completely overlooked. Perhaps this is why people are having difficulty with such a simple thing. For fear of the exception, let's go ahead and let the 18 obvious possibilities on board? Of course not. But profiling doesn't mean that pro-active investigations into shady figures of any color ends either.

    In the end, terrorists are going to be successful because it is impossible to know what lurks in the hearts of all men at all times. But we don't sit by and roll the dice either for fear of offending people.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-02-10 at 02:47 PM.

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  3. #413
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Plato View Post
    MSgt. Your posts are serious and challenging. Not the usual hatefest. I do think islam needs a reformation too. And I speak as an agnostic Catholic. The Reformation considerably improved the RC Church in time and this should be borne in mind for islamic reformations. Kemal Attaturk also secularized Turkey, which remains an islamic country.

    Islam needs to be challenged. But it needs to be done in a way that will work, not one that will antagonize.
    Another general truth is that the furthest away from the heartland of Islam Muslims get the healthier they are. Some of this is because opportunity awaits on the other side of the tracks. But some of this is that they get away from the Sunni strangle hold on Islam. Attaturk was not a Sunni. The Sunni typically look upon Turks as not being real Muslims because they are converts. They also happen to be the ones that ended 1400 years of Caliphate tradition when they abolished the Sultan. The Shia are treated like garbage either through tribal prejudices or by the written law. And it weas the Sunni that fought and denied the Ottoman's their attemts to reform Islam ever since they lost stewardship after the Crusades.

    Reformation is indeed needed. I just don't think it is practical without an enormous amount of further bloodshed and slaughter. I believe they are going to run right out of time. And when the rest of the world can no longer purchase oil from them it will no longer care about their "health." If we think the narcotic of blame that exists now is bad...

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  4. #414
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    Quit with the Obama answers, do what exactly? What do we do to face down "Islamophobia?" And where do you see hate politics? Your generalizations tough to debate, are they on purpose?
    Of course they are on purpose, but it is only because nobody has a clue what to do about it and most don't even understand the problems as they rush to spew bumper sticker wisdom and reporter influenced opinion. Bush, Obama, regional experts, all have ideas and little dents of possibilities, but in the end this is a regional problem that is largely ignored by the regional players and it is they that have to ultimately bear the burden of this effort. "Islamophobia" is largely a term for the weaker petrified folk who wish to feel above this world's reality and without the unpoliticially correct criticism. They have no problems criticizing Christians though. Perhaps they are mere "Christianphobes."

    Here is some general understanding that we give our (your) Marines...

    1) Root Cause - The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by Hassan al Banna and the vast majority of terrorists are members, however most Radicals are not. The majority of Islamic Radicals are "the sea from which the terrorists swim" and are revered. The cancer of Radical Islam grows where socio-economic conditions are poor; governments are repressive and unable to provide essential social services, such as providing adequate oversight of their educational system….or have allowed / sanctioned Radical Islamic curricula. Islamic fundamentalism has given an aim and form to the otherwise aimless and formless resentment and anger of the Muslim masses at the forces that have devalued their traditional values and loyalties and, in the final analysis, robbed them of their beliefs, their aspirations, their dignity, and to an increasing extent even their livelihood. Frustrated by the complete inability to exert any discernible degree of control over their immediate circumstances, frustrated adherents of Radical Islam, goaded by Radical Islamic Clerics, will resort to terrorism as the only avenue to effect religious, social, political, and economic change.

    2) Short Term Solution - Radical Islam is a precursor to terrorism. It lays the ideological and religious foundation for Islamic-inspired violence and, as such, represents a long-term threat to the national security of the United States of America. The ongoing Global War on Terrorism targets the current generation of terrorists; however, unless the ideology that spawned them is also countered the long-term threat to the U.S. will exponentially grow with time.

    3) Long Term Solution - Thus, when dealing with a culture in which only faith and family matter to our enemies, we insist on making war on governments and negotiating with political organizations that are no more than mobs with diplomatic representation. We have to start dealing with people and tribes while dealing with their corrupt governments. Here are some "solutions" that have been tossed around at military conferences and briefs over the years. *Note...Some of these are active operations and some are general sentiments of the intel community.

    a - Acknowledge the threat posed by Radical Islam. (Amazing how so much of the world contiunues to pretend that a mere few rogues are the problem.)

    b - We are not targeting Islam, just the Radical Islamists – we better say so and often.

    c - Support the moderate voices (indirectly).

    d - Focus our efforts on the long term enemy = the creation of more Radical Islamists.

    e - Garner worldwide support for this effort. After enough people around the globe have died (and they will) this will come naturally.

    f - Designate DOS (Department of State) as lead agency against countering Radical Islam.

    g - Following recognition of the threat – fund the programs necessary to counter it.

    h - Reorganize foreign assistance funding and efforts creating DOS “Regional Directors” that actually control assets = Reorganize DOS along Geographical vice Functional Lines (much like DoD Combatant CDRs).

    i - Review Current Foreign Policy Focusing on Taking the Political Ammunition Away From the Radical Extremists.

    j - Resolve Israeli / Palestinian and Indian / Pakistani disputes.

    k - We must succeed in both Afghanistan and Iraq….and ensure these are perceived as successes in the Muslim world.

    l - Counter Radical Islamic Media = Counter Al Jazeera and like Radical Islamic media….without appearing to do so.

    m - Reestablish funding for cultural outreach programs cut following the end of the "Cold War."

    n - Give voice to moderate Islamic leaders (indirectly).

    o - Support Programs Dedicated to Providing Educational Reform in Threatened Countries. (The official Saudi newspaper, Ain Al-Yaqeen, described royal expenditures on “education” as “astronomical.” (Mar 2002) They built 1500 mosques, 202 colleges, and 2000 Muslim schools. These were established throughout non-Islamic countries in Europe, North and South America, Australia, and Asia. None in the Middle East.)

    p - Governments with strong governmental oversight over the education of their young must be rewarded; likewise those that do not provide such oversight must be punished.

    q - AT HOME = Constitutional / Legal Review of activities surrounding fundamentalist religions that pose a domestic threat, – we face a new threat and our legal system is ill equipped to handle it. Witness GITMO and the idiotic conduct of our politicians and citizens over it.


    More problems in the MENA Region....

    - The populations within the next 25 years…
    Egypt’s population will increase by 38%
    Jordan’s by 67%
    Syria’s by 58%
    Saudi Arabia’s by 94%
    Pakistan’s by 69%, and
    Israel’s by 39%

    - Decreasing Fresh Water Supplies: MENA region faces precipitous decrease in per capita fresh water supply.

    - Economic doldrums / disaster: Regional unemployment for ages 15-35 = 40%…and growing. ….mostly males….who can’t afford to get married……...

    - No known solutions to these problems, save one = Jihad.

    Only democracies have shown agility to deal with such problems. In the absence of answers victims will look for scapegoats. Radical Islamic clerics provide the scapegoat for the problems facing the Arab/Islamic world. "Their problems are the fault of the West, specifically the US." (How many Americans feed into their blame game?) Either we find a way to support the affected countries in finding their own solutions to these problems or our future generations will be fighting another World War, but centered around the wastelands of the Middle East.
    Last edited by MSgt; 01-02-10 at 03:24 PM.

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  5. #415
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

    I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.

    It's GREAT to be me. --- "45% liberal/55% conservative"
    Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy" until you can find a gun.

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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    What did I just state about exceptions? Profiling doesn't mean that others are completely overlooked. Perhaps this is why people are having difficulty with such a simple thing. For fear of the exception, let's go ahead and let the 18 obvious possibilities on board? Of course not. But profiling doesn't mean that pro-active investigations into shady figures of any color ends either.

    In the end, terrorists are going to be successful because it is impossible to know what lurks in the hearts of all men at all times.
    But we don't sit by and roll the dice either for fear of offending people.
    I want to amend that to:
    Sometimes they will be sucessful.....
    I agree 100% with the your statement.....
    I don't know if it was mentioned, but an extra hard look at those with foreign passports would be smart as well, in fact, it should be the first profiling step......

  7. #417
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

    I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.
    Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
    I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.

    But you are so correct in that other dogs bite too. The terrorist are well aware they are profiled so that is why they will recruit blond haired blue eyed devils from our own country. And they won't always be male dogs either.

  8. #418
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain America View Post
    Profiling is the wisdom to not let your child venture into a kennel filled with Pitt Bulls. No doubt, some Pitt Bulls are the gentlest creatures on God's green earth. But there are others, they we read about on a consistant basis, that just love to chew up little children.

    I say we go with the profiling, however, be wise enough to know that other dogs bite too.
    Children should never interact with any dog unsupervised. Profile all dogs and humans.
    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    Being a psychiatric patient does not mean that you are mentally ill.



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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
    I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.

    But you are so correct in that other dogs bite too. The terrorist are well aware they are profiled so that is why they will recruit blond haired blue eyed devils from our own country. And they won't always be male dogs either.
    That's a bit of a racist comment......
    I think I'm offended......

  10. #420
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    Re: Passenger Ignites Explosive on Delta Flight, Al Qaeda Connection Reported

    Quote Originally Posted by Crosscheck View Post
    Great post with great analogy. Of course they profile. We all profile.
    I have pulled up to park my motorcycle next to an occupied car and seen the owner push the door lock button down. I was in full leathers but do not have colors on but to this person they just felt safer with door locked. So be it.
    And if that same person wants to hate black people and discriminate against them, they can, because they're a private person.

    Our government is held to to a higher standard.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

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