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Bernard Madoff beat up in USA Prison

Well, he DOES owe a lot of people a lot of money. Looks like he is starting to pay it back, in ass. New poll - How many prison rapes will it take before Madoff is out of debt? My bet is quite a few. :mrgreen:

Yeah, prison rape is so hilarious. Especially when it happens to an old man who hasn't even been convicted of a violent crime himself. :doh
Some of you guys are absolutely barbaric.
 
When did I ever say that people who had no control of their investments were stupid?

If you bothered to read the whole thing and take notice that i was referring to the people that invested millions of their dollars into something that could cause them to loose it all just by its very nature.

Hedge funds are risky by design, they are for rich people who have tons of money to play with and not for retirement funds and money you need.

"Investing in certain types of hedge fund can be a riskier proposition than investing in a regulated fund, despite a "hedge" being a means of reducing the risk of a bet or investment. Many hedge funds have some of these characteristics:"

"Leverage - in addition to money invested into the fund by investors, a hedge fund will typically borrow money, with certain funds borrowing sums many times greater than the initial investment. If a hedge fund has borrowed $9 for every $1 received from investors, a loss of only 10% of the value of the investments of the hedge fund will wipe out 100% of the value of the investor's stake in the fund, once the creditors have called in their loans. Leverage can also be achieved through trading on margin. In September 1998, shortly before its collapse, Long-Term Capital Management had $125 billion of assets on a base of $4 billion of investors' money, a leverage of over 30 times. It also had off-balance sheet positions with a notional value of approximately $1 trillion.[12]"

"Appetite for risk - hedge funds are more likely than other types of funds to take on underlying investments that carry high degrees of risk, such as high yield bonds, distressed securities, and collateralized debt obligations based on sub-prime mortgages."

Hedge fund - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That is but a taste of the risk involved with hedge funds, would you invest your retirement money in that?

Here is a glance at what you said Harry; notice that there was no Differentiation between headgefund managers and other investors, kinda looks like a pretty big brush to me



25# I have no sympathy for the people who fell for his scam.

28# They invested in a hedge fund, not only that but many of them invested their life savings in a hedge fund, one of the riskiest investment vehicles in existence.

#1 rule of investing, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

#2 rule of investing, don't invest what you can't afford to loose.

#32 Nothing justifies them being ripped off but their own reckless behavior has consequences.

Investing, potentially, millions of dollars with little research behind what your investing in is gigantically stupid.
A $20 book or a free visit to an investing website would have saved them their heart ache.

34# I just can't bring myself to cry for those that were screwed by him, they were mostly screwed by themselves, they had the majority of the power in that scenario and they chose to believe fanciful crap instead of making wiser choices.

37# I have other opinions about those who can supposedly never save but yes they lost mostly to their own stupidity.

A fool and his money are easily separated and this proves it.
 

Here is a glance at what you said Harry; notice that there was no Differentiation between headgefund managers and other investors, kinda looks like a pretty big brush to me



25# I have no sympathy for the people who fell for his scam.

28# They invested in a hedge fund, not only that but many of them invested their life savings in a hedge fund, one of the riskiest investment vehicles in existence.

#1 rule of investing, don't put all your eggs in one basket.

#2 rule of investing, don't invest what you can't afford to loose.

#32 Nothing justifies them being ripped off but their own reckless behavior has consequences.

Investing, potentially, millions of dollars with little research behind what your investing in is gigantically stupid.
A $20 book or a free visit to an investing website would have saved them their heart ache.

34# I just can't bring myself to cry for those that were screwed by him, they were mostly screwed by themselves, they had the majority of the power in that scenario and they chose to believe fanciful crap instead of making wiser choices.

37# I have other opinions about those who can supposedly never save but yes they lost mostly to their own stupidity.

A fool and his money are easily separated and this proves it.

Yes, at no point did I say anything about anyone who did not voluntarily invest in his hedge fund, not one single time did I say "people who had no control of their money were stupid for investing in his hedge fund."

Why? Because it is incredibly contradictory to blame people who had no control of their money.
 
Yes, at no point did I say anything about anyone who did not voluntarily invest in his hedge fund, not one single time did I say "people who had no control of their money were stupid for investing in his hedge fund."

Why? Because it is incredibly contradictory to blame people who had no control of their money.


That’s right Harry; at no time did you differentiate between the poor souls that were depending on the advice of the managers of their funds and the ones that you perceived as stupid and deserving of losing all of their money for their stupidity.

You painted all with the same paintbrush. When I pointed this out to you is when you started showing your concerns for the poor souls; hence the jet powered goal post.;)
 
Yeah, prison rape is so hilarious. Especially when it happens to an old man who hasn't even been convicted of a violent crime himself. :doh
Some of you guys are absolutely barbaric.

Being old doesn't make someone a better person, as Madoff so clearly demonstrated throughout his life. Rape is a brutal aspect of prison that needs to be seriously addressed instead of joked about, so I'm really only dealing with the "it's not right because he's old" angle. I'm sure you could think of half a dozen people right off the top of your head who committed acts so heinous that being punished for it at even an advanced age might not bother you so much. Point being, age isn't relevant.

As for him not being convicted of a violent crime, that too is irrelevant as violence isn't required to destroy other people's lives. With a confident smile and a reassuring word Madoff left a path of ruinin his wake, and he did it all entirely on purpose and for his own profit.

Did you watch any of the trials and see his reaction to the charges against him as well as his reaction to the victims who were allowed to speak against him? His face was so devoid of emotion he could barely be categorized as human.

Prisons were built because of people like Madoff.
 
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That’s right Harry; at no time did you differentiate between the poor souls that were depending on the advice of the managers of their funds and the ones that you perceived as stupid and deserving of losing all of their money for their stupidity.

You painted all with the same paintbrush. When I pointed this out to you is when you started showing your concerns for the poor souls; hence the jet powered goal post.;)

Don you don't know a damn thing about this stuff and only seem to want to attack me for no real reason.

Note that I did not blame the people who did not have control of their money.
Not once did I do that, not one single time.

You get hung up on one thing and then try to pigeon hole me, sorry you
have failed.

People do not ask their pension fund managers what to invest in, the managers do that on their own.
Pension fund managers are a trusted position which requires them to invest other peoples money by following a code of due diligence.

That is why they are managers and not consultants.
Go read a few books on investing and hedge funds before you try to take me on.
 
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Being old doesn't make someone a better person, as Madoff so clearly demonstrated throughout his life. Rape is a brutal aspect of prison that needs to be seriously addressed instead of joked about, so I'm really only dealing with the "it's not right because he's old" angle. I'm sure you could think of half a dozen people right off the top of your head who committed acts so heinous that being punished for it at even an advanced age might not bother you so much. Point being, age isn't relevant.

Fine, substitute "defenseless" for "old." My point still stands.

Cardinal said:
As for him not being convicted of a violent crime, that too is irrelevant as violence isn't required to destroy other people's lives. With a confident smile and a reassuring word Madoff left a path of ruinin his wake, and he did it all entirely on purpose and for his own profit.

Did you watch any of the trials and see his reaction to the charges against him as well as his reaction to the victims who were allowed to speak against him? His face was so devoid of emotion he could barely be categorized as human.

None of this justifies assaults and/or rapes, and is just an appeal to emotion.

Cardinal said:
Prisons were built because of people like Madoff.

No they weren't, they were designed to isolate physically dangerous people from society. Why is locking someone in a cage the default punishment for any kind of wrongdoing?
 
Fine, substitute "defenseless" for "old." My point still stands.

Should I care that he's "defenseless"? You're going to have to find a different argument to pique my sympathies. We're talking about a career predator here, not some guy who went to jail for hitting a guy with his car while talking on the cellphone.

None of this justifies assaults and/or rapes, and is just an appeal to emotion.

Don't pin the rape thing on me. I didn't bring it up or joke about it, and I was quite explicit that it's an issue that I believe needs to be dealt with seriously. And I think you're keeping the rape angle alive to distract me from the fact that the nonviolence of his crime was irrelevant. (In other words, an appeal to emotion).

No they weren't, they were designed to isolate physically dangerous people from society.

Only "physically?" I'm pretty sure that since laws were written down on a piece of rock people have been going to prison for more than just violent crimes.

Why is locking someone in a cage the default punishment for any kind of wrongdoing?

You're smarter than this. Don't engage in these straw men.
 
Kandahar,

Not that i believe BM deserves to be raped, and beat up constantly; but there are people who are wrongly convicted, or unable to afford the legal costs necessary to beat the charges. Enforcing his rights should be the very lowest priority for society.

Given the fact that the he admitted his crime... i can only view this as less than collateral damage. If he happens to get raped, beaten, extorted, etc..., i could care less. Lesson learned: scam billions and the consequences will be severe.
 
Should I care that he's "defenseless"? You're going to have to find a different argument to pique my sympathies. We're talking about a career predator here, not some guy who went to jail for hitting a guy with his car while talking on the cellphone.



Don't pin the rape thing on me. I didn't bring it up or joke about it, and I was quite explicit that it's an issue that I believe needs to be dealt with seriously. And I think you're keeping the rape angle alive to distract me from the fact that the nonviolence of his crime was irrelevant. (In other words, an appeal to emotion).

If the bolded part is correct, then I really don't know what you're trying to argue about.

Cardinal said:
Only "physically?" I'm pretty sure that since laws were written down on a piece of rock people have been going to prison for more than just violent crimes.

You're smarter than this. Don't engage in these straw men.

If it's such a no-brainer, then certainly you can answer the question. Why is locking someone in a cage the default punishment for any wrongdoing? Is the world a safer place because Bernie Madoff is in a cage, instead of under house arrest and/or wearing an ankle bracelet?
 
Kandahar,

Not that i believe BM deserves to be raped, and beat up constantly; but there are people who are wrongly convicted, or unable to afford the legal costs necessary to beat the charges. Enforcing his rights should be the very lowest priority for society.

Given the fact that the he admitted his crime... i can only view this as less than collateral damage. If he happens to get raped, beaten, extorted, etc..., i could care less. Lesson learned: scam billions and the consequences will be severe.

"If he happens to get raped, beaten"...as though it were just a matter of fate instead of something the government actually had control over. :roll:
The government has a responsibility to ensure prisoners are not abused. Allowing it to happen is no different than public officials doing it themselves.
 
Don you don't know a damn thing about this stuff and only seem to want to attack me for no real reason.

Note that I did not blame the people who did not have control of their money.
Not once did I do that, not one single time.

You get hung up on one thing and then try to pigeon hole me, sorry you
have failed.

A random post of yours (25# I have no sympathy for the people who fell for his scam.)

People do not ask their pension fund managers what to invest in, the managers do that on their own.
Pension fund managers are a trusted position which requires them to invest other peoples money by following a code of due diligence.


Fund managers sure are, that’s why you should not use such a big brush when say things like this.

(#32 Nothing justifies them being ripped off but their own reckless behavior has consequences.)

Looks like your saying tough s*** for being such a fool as putting your money in this fund. Maybe you should have done a bit of due diligence before you gave it to this crook.:shock:
 
If the bolded part is correct, then I really don't know what you're trying to argue about.

There were three issues (that I identified) that you brought up in post #101: rape, age and violence. I specifically dealt with the last two. You're shadowboxing with me on the rape issue because I already agree with you on it. And again you're cleverly (though obviously) keeping the rape angle alive in order to distract me. His defenselessness and the nonviolence of his crime, and the irrelevance of both, is what I addressed.

If it's such a no-brainer, then certainly you can answer the question. Why is locking someone in a cage the default punishment for any wrongdoing?

I imagine that if I made such a statement I would certainly be liable for defending it. You also seem to be dancing around the fact that you claimed that prison was made for "physically violent" people only. I've never debated you before, and never realized how much you resort to the Stinger Shuffle technique of debate.

Is the world a safer place because Bernie Madoff is in a cage, instead of under house arrest and/or wearing an ankle bracelet?

Actually, I don't know. I'm really not terribly concerned with the particulars of a predator's incarceration so long as they're effectively quarantined from the rest of society.That goes both ways, actually: I'd be fine if he were quarantined in a dark and cold prison (sans rape), and I'd be fine if he were quarantined in a five star hotel.
 
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A random post of yours (25# I have no sympathy for the people who fell for his scam.)

Do people who invest have pension funds have control over where their assets are invested?

Fund managers sure are, that’s why you should not use such a big brush when say things like this.

(#32 Nothing justifies them being ripped off but their own reckless behavior has consequences.)

Looks like your saying tough s*** for being such a fool as putting your money in this fund. Maybe you should have done a bit of due diligence before you gave it to this crook.:shock:

Yep a hedge fund is not a pension fund, there is a big difference between the 2 that you don't understand.

Teachers, firefighters et all do not make enough money to invest in hedge funds.
Hedge funds are play things for people with tons of money and none of those people who have those professions meet the income requirements to invest in a hedge fund.

A pension fund is a retirement fund set up for people who are teachers, firefighters et all. They are not the same thing.

Yes I do not feel sorry for people who stupidly took all their money and invested it in a hedge fund, hedge funds are not for retirement.

Yes I am saying that if you, as an individual, took all your money, that you were counting on for retirement, and put it in a hedge fund, with out even bothering to use independent research, are an idiot.
 
There were three issues (that I identified) that you brought up in post #101: rape, age and violence. I specifically dealt with the last two. You're shadowboxing with me on the rape issue because I already agree with you on it. And again you're cleverly (though obviously) keeping the rape angle alive in order to distract me. His defenselessness and the nonviolence of his crime, and the irrelevance of both, is what I addressed.

And since "the rape issue" was obviously the main point I made in that post, whereas the references to his age was clearly just an offhand comment, you're just nitpicking. :roll:
 
And since "the rape issue" was obviously the main point I made in that post, whereas the references to his age was clearly just an offhand comment, you're just nitpicking. :roll:

What you added on was "...Especially when it happens to an old man who hasn't even been convicted of a violent crime himself."

Unlike some on this forum, I make no claim at telepathy. If the main thrust of your post was the rape issue, you should have communicated that better instead of filling up the rest of your posts with what you now apparently acknowledge as being red herrings.
 
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Well, he DOES owe a lot of people a lot of money. Looks like he is starting to pay it back, in ass. New poll - How many prison rapes will it take before Madoff is out of debt? My bet is quite a few. :mrgreen:

As much as I dislike Madoff, I find it disgusting the prison system is a place where gangs thrive, scores are settled through thug-like behavior, and people cheer from the sidelines.

It's a place to serve your punishment, pay your debt to society... or should be.

To have the crap that happens, and is known publicly... and is celebrated is a disgrace.

.
 
As much as I dislike Madoff, I find it disgusting the prison system is a place where gangs thrive, scores are settled through thug-like behavior, and people cheer from the sidelines.

It's a place to serve your punishment, pay your debt to society... or should be.

To have the crap that happens, and is known publicly... and is celebrated is a disgrace.

.
I don't think he actually got beat up. Read the article, it's been updated.
 
Hmm, and people say that the death penalty is brutal. :lol:

EDIT: Wait, the article you linked says that he's being treated for hypertension (and the prison assault was just a rumor that's been found false). Aw..


LOL -- You're the first one to mention this, 118 posts in.

I guess that shows you how many people actually read the articles. I clicked on it earlier today--noticed it didn't say anything about being beaten up and I was sort of disappointed.

I wonder if the OP is just playing a trick on all of us. It's Christmas not April Fools.
 
I don't think he actually got beat up. Read the article, it's been updated.

I did, but in any event our prison systems seem to be bastions for the behavior described above.

Abu Graib seems like a kiddies show by comparison, and look what happened when that was exposed. We know why though; the Liberal propaganda machine hates the military, and hated Bush with a passion... were eager to do anything to smack both.

.
 
***** Because I never feared anyone looking like him either on the streets or Subways in NYC.

A scumbag's looks is irrelevant. If your compassion only limited to him or does it apply to other criminals as well? If this guy was like John Couey would you be asking us to show compassion? would you be saying "***** A little Basic Christianity may be in order here OR I presume that most have never been locked up even briefly (?) Think about it." By the way "******" usually mean you are cursing.
 
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I did, but in any event our prison systems seem to be bastions for the behavior described above.

Abu Graib seems like a kiddies show by comparison, and look what happened when that was exposed. We know why though; the Liberal propaganda machine hates the military, and hated Bush with a passion... were eager to do anything to smack both.

.

Yeah......it was all about hating the military.....not some of our redneck soldiers making a PR hole the size of Kansas for the rest of the military.

abu_ghraib_new-721906.jpg


Yeah....it was because liberals hate the military...you are such a narrowminded zygote.
 
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Why is locking someone in a cage the default punishment for any wrongdoing?


There are different types of punishment not just prison such as warnings,fines, parole, community service, a restriction of rights, public embarrassment and the death penalty. Prison is a punishment not just for violent offenders. If that man only ripped off one person then sure maybe a fine,community service or parole would suffice.



Is the world a safer place because Bernie Madoff is in a cage, instead of under house arrest and/or wearing an ankle bracelet?
Yes.Maybe not the whole world in general and besides the rest of the world is irrelevant in how we punish our criminals. But seeing how he can not buy his way out he is actually being punished for ruining the livelyhoods of others and ripping off his victims.
 
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