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Thread: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

  1. #291
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually it is very well defined. If you know how it came about.
    Wrong, it is not well defined and that was on purpose. It came about because the founding fathers were smart enough not to try to predict the future. They set up the basic government to be flexible enough to address the expected change and growth.


    "general welfare" has it's own obvious definition.
    Last edited by Dirty Harry; 12-26-09 at 10:58 PM.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    1: No. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. Especially when the odds are that the things being discussed will still be in the bill when all is said and done.

    2: No. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. Especially when the odds are that the things being discussed will still be in the bill when all is said and done.

    3: Why pay money for something that you don't need? Just because you see it as idiotic doesn't mean that those that don't have insurance but can afford it should have it if they don't want it. And the odds of needing it between the ages of 20-40 are a lot smaller than those that are younger or older. It is far healthier for people to drink water than any soft drink out there. Do you think that a law should be implemented to mandate the people stop drinking it? What gives the government the right to enforce such a law?

    4: It might. But is it right to force someone into buying something that they don't want because they might need it before they think that they do?
    oops, we got a reading comprehension issue going on here.

    1) I never said it shouldn't be discussed, once all the facts and figures are in--a reasonable discussion is fine.

    2) Ditto.

    3) Can you afford to pay out of pocket for any unforeseen medical issue? Then why would you not have some type of basic health insurance. That soft drink crap is a false analogy. Government is requiring a minimum amount of personal financial responsibility. You can't drive a car without liability insurance. You can't rent commercial property without some type of insurance. Some landlords require renters insurance. Why would you risk burdening your family and/or society should you have a major health issue. That's being a selfish prick.

    4) Maybe then they should have waiver. If anything should happen to you that you can't cover out of pocket--society in not responsible for you. Put it with your organ donor card. Call it, DNR /PNM -- "Do Not Resuscitate and Pay No Mind." Can we take the cost of the morphine out of your last paycheck? Because no one wants to hear you screaming while you bleed out.

  3. #293
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, you have that wrong. read again:

    Don't need? How do you or anyone know what they will need in terms of health care?
    Let me highlight the key words here. You're key word is "need". My key word is "won't". IE you're talking about what they will need. I'm talking about what they won't need. You keep saying that people can't predict that weather or not they will need it. Well, you can't predict the opposite either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not once there is bankruptcy. And check and see how little is actually collected of medical debt.

    The development of a medical credit score system and the national debate over skyrocketing health-care costs have put the spotlight on the growing problem of medical debt. For consumers, medical debt is a leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Hospitals struggle to make up for lost revenue. Bruce J. Rueben, president of the Minnesota Hospital Association, shared his perspective on the issue with Star Tribune editorial writer Jill Burcum:

    Q. Nationwide, an estimated $30 billion in medical bills go unpaid every year.


    Q & A: MEDICAL DEBT; Ultimately, who's going to get stuck with the bill?(NEWS)(Opinion Exchange) - Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN) | Encyclopedia.com
    Easy way to fix this? Make it a priority debt. Then the bankruptcy court cannot discharge it. Definately don't need this health care reform bill for that now do we?



    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    If insurance companies did this, they go out business. The need people to pay in advance.
    I never said the insurance companies do this. But people can.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  4. #294
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Let me highlight the key words here. You're key word is "need". My key word is "won't". IE you're talking about what they will need. I'm talking about what they won't need. You keep saying that people can't predict that weather or not they will need it. Well, you can't predict the opposite either.
    It's not about predicting. It's about being prepared IF.

    Easy way to fix this? Make it a priority debt. Then the bankruptcy court cannot discharge it. Definately don't need this health care reform bill for that now do we?
    Why do you think that would be better? This would ruin even more people.




    I never said the insurance companies do this. But people can.
    And if they do, insurance companies go out of business. It is not good practice and insurance companies have every reason to fight this.

  5. #295
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    3) Can you afford to pay out of pocket for any unforeseen medical issue? Then why would you not have some type of basic health insurance. That soft drink crap is a false analogy. Government is requiring a minimum amount of personal financial responsibility. You can't drive a car without liability insurance. You can't rent commercial property without some type of insurance. Some landlords require renters insurance. Why would you risk burdening your family and/or society should you have a major health issue. That's being a selfish prick.
    I can so long as they allow me to make payments. Anyone can.

    Driving is a priviledge. Hence why I don't mind that insurance. And you don't have to drive..ie you don't have to have the insurance either.

    Not everyone rents commerical property. And does the federal government really require insurance? Or is that the person that requires it? Big difference there.

    Landlords: That is far different from the government requireing you to have that insurance. There's also the fact that you don't have to rent from that landlord.

    And I don't expect anyone to pay for my health care. I do expect ME to pay for it however. While I certainly couldn't pay the whole of a medical cost that's $1k and up I can certainly make payments. And would have no problem doing so. But see that's the problem here isn't it? Some people don't even attempt to make payments. Is that my fault? Yours? Or theirs? Who do you think should be held accountable? You? Why should you be held accountable for someone else's failure to pay their bills?

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    4) Maybe then they should have waiver. If anything should happen to you that you can't cover out of pocket--society in not responsible for you. Put it with your organ donor card. Call it, DNR /PNM -- "Do Not Resuscitate and Pay No Mind." Can we take the cost of the morphine out of your last paycheck? Because no one wants to hear you screaming while you bleed out.
    Or we can just hold that person accountable for the bill. Do not allow bankruptcy courts to discharge such debts (ie make it a priority debt) and garnish their wages.

    Imagine that? Makeing people accountable for their own bills!

    (imo we should just get rid of bankruptcy laws period)
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 12-26-09 at 11:23 PM.
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  6. #296
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    It's not about predicting. It's about being prepared IF.
    IE predicting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Why do you think that would be better? This would ruin even more people.
    No it would hold people accountable for their bills. As for "ruin" people? I'm sorry but where is it said that people have a right to luxuries?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    And if they do, insurance companies go out of business. It is not good practice and insurance companies have every reason to fight this.
    Sure they can fight it. Doesn't mean that they will be successful. Before this HCB no one was required to buy anything that they could not get out of buying.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    IE predicting.
    Planning, preparing, being personally responsible.

    No it would hold people accountable for their bills. As for "ruin" people? I'm sorry but where is it said that people have a right to luxuries?
    Really, who can be responsible for bills so high as they will never be able to afford them. It's not like choosing to buy a car or not.


    Sure they can fight it. Doesn't mean that they will be successful. Before this HCB no one was required to buy anything that they could not get out of buying.
    Doesn't mean they won't either. It's one reason the mandate is in the bill.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Planning, preparing, being personally responsible.
    Where does the government have the right to force people to be responsible? (hint, this is where my soda pop analogy comes in)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Really, who can be responsible for bills so high as they will never be able to afford them. It's not like choosing to buy a car or not.
    I can. I take responsibilities for my bills. I've paid for both of my kid's bills when they were born. And I only make 14k per year. Now how did I pay roughly 30k when I make so little? I made payments. So no one can tell me that it is impossible to pay off debts. Especially since the majority of people make more than I do.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Doesn't mean they won't either. It's one reason the mandate is in the bill.
    So this is going to help health insurance businesses. Where exactly does it help joe blow? You see this is the problem. With insurance you HAVE to pay a certain amount in a certain short time period and then it restarts all over after 6-12 months. With medical costs you have the option of paying it over years if necessary. It is quite possible to pay a health insurance company more than you will ever need from them. By mandating it you do not have the option of not paying them more than you will ever recieve from them.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  9. #299
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Where does the government have the right to force people to be responsible? (hint, this is where my soda pop analogy comes in)
    Like with car insurance, when it effects someone else. We all pay for the irresponsible in health care.


    I can. I take responsibilities for my bills. I've paid for both of my kid's bills when they were born. And I only make 14k per year. Now how did I pay roughly 30k when I make so little? I made payments. So no one can tell me that it is impossible to pay off debts. Especially since the majority of people make more than I do.
    I tell you, there are more expensive things out there than that. A lot more. Things you cannot pay for that way and actually get it paid.




    So this is going to help health insurance businesses. Where exactly does it help joe blow? You see this is the problem. With insurance you HAVE to pay a certain amount in a certain short time period and then it restarts all over after 6-12 months. With medical costs you have the option of paying it over years if necessary. It is quite possible to pay a health insurance company more than you will ever need from them. By mandating it you do not have the option of not paying them more than you will ever recieve from them.
    Yes, it helps the insurance companies. But it helps Joe blow as well. He doesn't have to pay for those who abuse the system. Instead, he takes responsibility and plans for what could happen. And while it is possible to pay more than you will receive, it is just as possible to receive more than you'll ever pay. The point and the responsible thing is to be prepared.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Where does the government have the right to force people to be responsible? (hint, this is where my soda pop analogy comes in)
    When being irresponsible costs the rest of us tax dollars. (Hint: Driving without insurance would be a better analogy.)

    Question:

    Who are these people that can afford health insurance but will refuse to buy it. You? Why do they refuse?

    And these healthy 20-something folks just out of college--how much does basic coverage cost them? And if they're not covered by their parents' plan, and they don't yet have a job with insurance, they're covered by Medicaid.

    I'm still not clear on who we're talking about? Appalachian Mountain banjo playin' inbreds?

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