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Thread: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

  1. #281
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    1) Have the bills been reconciled yet?
    2) Has anybody actually been fined for not buying health insurance?
    3) Why would someone who could afford health insurance not have it?
    4) Won't the fines offset the massive costs of running public hospital emergency rooms that are being misused as primary care physicians?

    If you're a fat slob super-sizing your way to early onset diabetes, get off your couch, sell your widescreen tv, and buy some friggin' insurance, porky.

    Let's all calm the f the down and take an objective intelligent look at the proposed bills... Shall we?
    1: No. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. Especially when the odds are that the things being discussed will still be in the bill when all is said and done.

    2: No. Doesn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed. Especially when the odds are that the things being discussed will still be in the bill when all is said and done.

    3: Why pay money for something that you don't need? Just because you see it as idiotic doesn't mean that those that don't have insurance but can afford it should have it if they don't want it. And the odds of needing it between the ages of 20-40 are a lot smaller than those that are younger or older. It is far healthier for people to drink water than any soft drink out there. Do you think that a law should be implemented to mandate the people stop drinking it? What gives the government the right to enforce such a law?

    4: It might. But is it right to force someone into buying something that they don't want because they might need it before they think that they do?
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    I have read some of The Federalist Papers. Have you? Nothing about dams and roads in it. General Welfare.
    Yes, I have read the federalist. What you aren't getting about my argument is that the general welfare clause(in the preamble) was not argued to be a catch all for government takeover, such as health care, it was meant to be a power to lay and collect taxes to exercise rights given to the federal, such as interstate commerce(facilitation of transportation, not control of it), and anything else would be state problems as they are state rights, thus, responsibilities. Again, how does health care qualify as a federal right? Especially since the government cannot do the job as efficiently or satisfactorally as the private sector.


    " provides that the governing body empowered by the document may enact laws as it sees fit to promote the well-being of the people governed thereunder. Such clauses are generally interpreted as granting the state broad power to regulate for the general welfare that is independent of other powers specified in the governing document."
    Madison on the Meaning of the "General Welfare," the "Purpose" of Enumerated Powers, and the "Definition" of Constitutional Government -- Sorenson 22 (2): 109 -- Publius: The Journal of Federalism

    This question is the most "fundamental" because the answer determines the very "idea" or "nature" of the U.S. Constitution. Commentators virtually agree on the answer Madison proposed and defended in Federalist 41, namely, that the general welfare clause is neither a statement of ends nor a substantive grant of power. It is a mere "synonym" for the enumeration of particular powers, which are limited and wholly define its content. From this answer, it follows that the primary meaning of the national dimension of the federal Constitution is limited government, understood as a government with a limited number of powers or means.
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

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  3. #283
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    3: Why pay money for something that you don't need? Just because you see it as idiotic doesn't mean that those that don't have insurance but can afford it should have it if they don't want it. And the odds of needing it between the ages of 20-40 are a lot smaller than those that are younger or older. It is far healthier for people to drink water than any soft drink out there. Do you think that a law should be implemented to mandate the people stop drinking it? What gives the government the right to enforce such a law?

    4: It might. But is it right to force someone into buying something that they don't want because they might need it before they think that they do?
    Don't need? How do you or anyone know what they will need in terms of health care?

    But, if we're going to treat you regardless of you ability to pay when you do need it, it's fair to expect you to pony up in advance, which is what insurance is.

  4. #284
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Don't need? How do you or anyone know what they will need in terms of health care?

    But, if we're going to treat you regardless of you ability to pay when you do need it, it's fair to expect you to pony up in advance, which is what insurance is.
    How do you know what they won't need in terms of health care?

    And if people don't pay their bills there are other avenues which can be taken to collect on that bill. It is not your fault or my fault if the person down the street can't pay thier bills. Why should I have to pay someone elses bill period? I sure don't expect anyone to pay my bills.

    Insurance is a commodity to help people pay for bills right away instead of making payments over time. That is the whole point of insurance.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  5. #285
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    How do you know what they won't need in terms of health care?
    Exactly what I'm asking you.

    And if people don't pay their bills there are other avenues which can be taken to collect on that bill. It is not your fault or my fault if the person down the street can't pay thier bills. Why should I have to pay someone elses bill period? I sure don't expect anyone to pay my bills.
    You can take those actions, which are costly, and still not get a majority actually collected. Remember, many with high medical bills go bankrupt. So, you lose the money originally put out for the treatment, and then the money spent on collection. Who do you think pays those bills?


    Insurance is a commodity to help people pay for bills right away instead of making payments over time. That is the whole point of insurance.
    Not exactly. You pay over time in advance. The way it works best is that well people pay in before they get sick or injured. If you only get it when you're sick, they can't pay your bills. Insurance simply wouldn't work.

  6. #286
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by LaMidRighter View Post
    Yes, I have read the federalist. What you aren't getting about my argument is that the general welfare clause(in the preamble) was not argued to be a catch all for government takeover, such as health care, it was meant to be a power to lay and collect taxes to exercise rights given to the federal, such as interstate commerce(facilitation of transportation, not control of it), and anything else would be state problems as they are state rights, thus, responsibilities. Again, how does health care qualify as a federal right? Especially since the government cannot do the job as efficiently or satisfactorally as the private sector.


    Madison on the Meaning of the "General Welfare," the "Purpose" of Enumerated Powers, and the "Definition" of Constitutional Government -- Sorenson 22 (2): 109 -- Publius: The Journal of Federalism
    You are making your own definition of general welfare. The writers of the constitution did leave it vague for the very purpose of addressing issues as they arose. They realized that great changes were ahead for the new nation and they were smart enough to realize that in order for the country to grow the Constitution would have to grow with it.

  7. #287
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Exactly what I'm asking you.
    Not exactly. I'm asking how do you know that they won't need insurance. You're asking how do I know what they will need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You can take those actions, which are costly, and still not get a majority actually collected. Remember, many with high medical bills go bankrupt. So, you lose the money originally put out for the treatment, and then the money spent on collection. Who do you think pays those bills?
    So you're telling me that they can't garnish someones wages through the courts? And bankruptcy does not override court ordered payments.


    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Not exactly. You pay over time in advance. The way it works best is that well people pay in before they get sick or injured. If you only get it when you're sick, they can't pay your bills. Insurance simply wouldn't work.
    Not exactly. If someone gets insurance and then uses it the next day for $15,000 and then after the bill is paid off they drop the insurance how is that an advance? How it works best does not reflect reality.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    You are making your own definition of general welfare. The writers of the constitution did leave it vague for the very purpose of addressing issues as they arose. They realized that great changes were ahead for the new nation and they were smart enough to realize that in order for the country to grow the Constitution would have to grow with it.
    Actually it is very well defined. If you know how it came about.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Not exactly. I'm asking how do you know that they won't need insurance. You're asking how do I know what they will need.
    No, you have that wrong. read again:

    Don't need? How do you or anyone know what they will need in terms of health care?

    So you're telling me that they can't garnish someones wages through the courts? And bankruptcy does not override court ordered payments.
    Not once there is bankruptcy. And check and see how little is actually collected of medical debt.

    The development of a medical credit score system and the national debate over skyrocketing health-care costs have put the spotlight on the growing problem of medical debt. For consumers, medical debt is a leading cause of personal bankruptcy. Hospitals struggle to make up for lost revenue. Bruce J. Rueben, president of the Minnesota Hospital Association, shared his perspective on the issue with Star Tribune editorial writer Jill Burcum:

    Q. Nationwide, an estimated $30 billion in medical bills go unpaid every year.


    Q & A: MEDICAL DEBT; Ultimately, who's going to get stuck with the bill?(NEWS)(Opinion Exchange) - Star Tribune (Minneapolis, MN) | Encyclopedia.com



    Not exactly. If someone gets insurance and then uses it the next day for $15,000 and then after the bill is paid off they drop the insurance how is that an advance? How it works best does not reflect reality.
    If insurance companies did this, they go out business. The need people to pay in advance.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Actually it is very well defined. If you know how it came about.
    Yes, but it doesn't say what they want it to, so anything else is "a made up definition".
    Neither side in an argument can find the truth when both make an absolute claim on it.

    LMR

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