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Thread: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

  1. #211
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
    Your problem, Plato, is that you are under the impression that if you quash Conservative thought, all would be hunky-dory, but there must be a buffer against the Liberal agenda, don't you think??
    I generally like conservative thought, if by that you mean what used to be called classical liberal thought. It's conservative morality I have a problem with. Now that's difficult to explain. This is a US debate, and I think that the healthcare bill is probably flawed. But what this debate has highlighted has been the thuggish mentality of the Right, not their ideology. I am actually one of the few Britons who would change the NHS, but to the French system of a regulated private sector, which from the land of Margaret Thatcher, the first global leader who followed supply side economics, is actually a right wing, overly market favouring point of view.

    There are no serious proposals to adopt the US system by anyone outside the USA, and this has nothing to do with anti Americanism which is usually restricted to foreign policy. To posit supporters of socialized medicine as Nazis or communists is a deeply offensive and dishonest act of totalitarian abuse. It is not conservative ideology. It is conservative behaviour.

    When it comes to a buffer against the liberal agenda, I don't really know what you mean. Obama's foreign policy is stridently interventionist (his speech in Oslo must have been a slap in the face for the pacifists that gave him the prize) in line with my neo-liberal views. In fact he is continuing and extending the neo-liberal policy of Bush's second term, after Bush got rid of the hooligan Rumsfeld and put Cheney back in his kennel. I agree that if Obama tries to extend the State further then there should be a buffer, but I think the interventioin in America's economy, again started by Bush, will end with the reconstruction of US automotive companies from disastrous over capacity, largely protected by America's very un-laissez faire bankruptcy laws, to a highly efficient new configuration. It will be firmly back in the private sector before Obama stands for another term. Healthcare will not have collapsed. There will be no Death Panels. The surges in both wars will be working. With a bit of luck the Iranian people will depose Ahmaninajad. Obama will storm to a second term.

    And if he doesn't, that's democracy, which is the real buffer against an inappropriate agenda.

    America's in fine shape. Now it's not torturing people any more and it is consistent with its values of liberty and the rule of law, it's the leader of the free world again and democracy is back on the global agenda.
    Last edited by Plato; 12-25-09 at 12:29 PM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    Bush and company already distroyed this once great nation. Your children can thank them. It only took 6 years of republican rule to bring it down.
    Merry Christmas

    PS I still will never understand why the GOP did nothing about heathcare when they had all the power. Now they whine.
    Then let me explain...

    It is because the GOP usually falls into a "leave well enough alone" mindset, only attending to that which is getting the most heat at the moment. And as everyone said at the time, "9/11 changed everything".

    Dems on the other hand are eternally trying to instill greater FEDERAL government influence. And even their level of effort grows in proportion. As the old line Liberals lost their potency they were replaced by the more strident Progressives. But while Dems do a better job of at least attempting to introduce solutions, their policies do nothing for promoting a strong, vibrant nation. Democrat policy normally benefits individuals at the cost of the main of society.

    But let me ask you...if Bush destroyed the nation, is that to say Obama is a continuance of the destruction? Or, do you believe Obama is a step in the right direction toward repair?

    Is the destruction reversable? Or permanent?
    Last edited by Telecaster; 12-25-09 at 12:35 PM.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    OT, I'm interested to see what happens to this element that says we have to purchase coverage.

    I assume the Supreme Court will find it unconstitutional. But if they don't overturn it, I personally will have a difficult time forking out for the tax (premium). My first thought is to not buy a plan, but then the Feds will merely garnish my wages. That will result in my having to walk away from my home (I'm still upside-down). But then again, with a lower rent I will be able to afford healthcare thereby possibly breaking even.

    Gee, it's great to have government working for me.

  4. #214
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Telecaster View Post
    Then let me explain...

    It is because the GOP usually falls into a "leave well enough alone" mindset, only attending to that which is getting the most heat at the moment. And as everyone said at the time, "9/11 changed everything".

    Dems on the other hand are eternally trying to instill greater FEDERAL government influence. And even their level of effort grows in proportion. As the old line Liberals lost their potency they were replaced by the more strident Progressives. But while Dems do a better job of at least attempting to introduce solutions, their policies do nothing for promoting a strong, vibrant nation. Democrat policy normally benefits individuals at the cost of the main of society.

    But let me ask you...if Bush destroyed the nation, is that to say Obama is a continuance of the destruction? Or, do you believe Obama is a step in the right direction toward repair?

    Is the destruction reversable? Or permanent?
    To be honest I don't think Obamas plan will do anything to save the nation. They are just postponing the inevitable. When unemployement benifits run out, credit cards are maxed out and banks start really foreclosing on all the homes on their books, then the shiite will hit the fan.

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Toothpicvic View Post
    Maybe the should've offered constructive criticism instead of just crying "death panels!" and "socialism!"
    They happen to factual and to the point. When did plain English become obsolete? We already have death panels as it is but it will get worse. And without any doubt this is socialism by any reasonable measure.

    I could write a bill to solve this problem on one page. It's not that complicated.
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Harry View Post
    To be honest I don't think Obamas plan will do anything to save the nation. They are just postponing the inevitable. When unemployement benifits run out, credit cards are maxed out and banks start really foreclosing on all the homes on their books, then the shiite will hit the fan.
    I'm just interested to know how extensive you believe Bush' destruction of the nation is.

    I know Obama is only making things worse. But I also believe Bush left us with nothing that couldn't have been corrected with only a mild amount of pain, but in a shorter time frame than what we are now experiencing.

  7. #217
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This is about the most disingenuous way of denying the reality of the situation that I can think of. It almost makes you feel for criminals like Al Capone.

    Look, I will freely say that wording in the legislation from the house, doesn't specifically say that if you don't buy health insurance, then you go to jail. However, the process is there to insure that this is a possible outcome is it not?

    There are likely myriads of things just like this spread out within a 2,000 page bill that is too arduous to read. That is the reason that it is so lengthy. Because, not only will the American people, many of whom are so busy with work, and other activities in their lives to read this steaming pile of crap, but couldn't understand the legalese to begin with. Hell, Senators that ARE lawyers won't read it, or don't understand it fully.
    I guess it is disingenuous to be accurate when it is so much fun to be inaccurate, but that's the type of fellow I am. Factually, you do not go to jail for not having insurance. It's a simple fact. I can't change that because you or anyone wants to "believe" something not factually accurate.

    And, believe it or not, the bill can be read and understood. It is not purely open to any interpretation anyone can come up with. One reason it is written in legalese is so that it can't be.

    Government never comes to you while taking your money and says that there is an option about anything concerned with the taking of that money. The option is to pay, period.
    In context, this makes no sense. As you don't buy insurance from the government, this assertion of yours is meaningless. But, as to paying taxes, yes, you will pay your taxes, one way or another. Nothing new in that.



    Sure it does. Because if you don't buy Health Insurance, the law is that the fine is automatic. There is no one arbitrating whether or not you get the fine. Therefore, they are tied together as one. The Tax, is unconstitutional, And it is my sincere hope that someone has the balls to challenge this in court, and before this takes real effect.
    Right. A fine. Not a jail term. A fine that is paid as a tax. You only go to jail if you break the tax law and not pay your tax. Again, this is a fact.



    Just because you repeat something over and over, doesn't make it a fact. As you told me once, things have many shades of grey. Right?


    j-mac
    That's exactly what I keep telling you and others. Saying you go to jail for not having insurance doesn't make it a fact. And the evidence, the law, the written verifiable written legislation shows there is no jail time imposed for not having insurance. So, it is about the facts and not your repeating misinformation.

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    Educator mikeey's Avatar
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    I hope the President does the right thing as the same as the Uk,that would be ok for the American poeople,why not,god bless him.

    mikeey.

  9. #219
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Right. A fine. Not a jail term. A fine that is paid as a tax. You only go to jail if you break the tax law and not pay your tax. Again, this is a fact.

    That's exactly what I keep telling you and others. Saying you go to jail for not having insurance doesn't make it a fact. And the evidence, the law, the written verifiable written legislation shows there is no jail time imposed for not having insurance. So, it is about the facts and not your repeating misinformation.
    I think I can read plain English. If you don't pay the tax "fine" you can go to jail. What part of that is not understandable?

    If a person doesn't have the insurance and is fined and then fails to pay the fine, what is the point of having it in the bill? It must have been put there for some reason. If there is zero enforcement, then it will be meaningless. If this is meaningless, then perhaps the entire bill is meaningless.

    Am I wrong?

    I asked a young lady waiting on tables the other day if she was going to buy insurance. She said she didn't have the money. So she will be fined if that is true. If she doesn't have the money for the insurance nor the fine, then by law she will be jailed if the bill is enforced.

    Am I wrong?
    "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

  10. #220
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Missouri Mule View Post
    I think I can read plain English. If you don't pay the tax "fine" you can go to jail. What part of that is not understandable?

    If a person doesn't have the insurance and is fined and then fails to pay the fine, what is the point of having it in the bill? It must have been put there for some reason. If there is zero enforcement, then it will be meaningless. If this is meaningless, then perhaps the entire bill is meaningless.

    Am I wrong?

    I asked a young lady waiting on tables the other day if she was going to buy insurance. She said she didn't have the money. So she will be fined if that is true. If she doesn't have the money for the insurance nor the fine, then by law she will be jailed if the bill is enforced.

    Am I wrong?

    Yes, you are wrong. You go to jail for not paying the tax and not for not having insurance.

    And as there is a hardship clause, not having the money is not really a barrier. Does she pay taxes? If she does, then she does so already and can simply have a few dollars more taken out a month. 2.5% would not be that noticeable.

    Again, don;t make excuses and be accurate about what is written. No one goes to jail for not having insurance. You have to break a second law.

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