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Thread: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

  1. #201
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It is a fact that if no one had to pay the fine then this issue would not have even been brought up. Obviously the two are linked. You can try to seperate them all that you want. Fact is that with out this fine then the clause's in the tax code would not apply.
    Yeah, and if they didn't make me pay taxes, well, you know, they are linked. But linked is a way of admitting they are not the same thing. You don't go to jail for not having insurance. You have to break another separate law to go to jail.


    I was defining the word "Tax" and "Fine". It was not directed at the going to jail part of this discussion. The fact that people are calling it a tax is disingenuous. The fact that the Government is calling it a tax and linking it to the tax codes is also disingenuous and a flat out lie. One needs to only look at the definitions of the two words to see this.

    I have a theory as to why the government is calling it a tax and is linking it to the tax code. Though I'm sure that there's no way to substantiate this.

    The theory is this.

    If it was instead called a fine by the government and treated as such it would be handled through the courts directly. This allows people to challenge it much easier.

    Going through the tax code however the government then creates more legal red tape before it ever gets to the courts. All they have to do is use the same kind of argument that you are trying to put forth. Even if that argument is disingenuous because it tries to seperate the two. Even though they are linked.
    Both can be challenged. However, that's a separate issue. The fact is you have to break a second law in order to be concerned about jail. Not having insurance does not land you in jail.

    As I said, we can keep repeating all this if you care to, but until you show the basic fact to be false, which is that you do not go to jail because you don't have insurance, words like linked and speculation about things being harder do not change the basic facts.

  2. #202
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassman View Post
    Why? Republicans and conservatives have been completely shut out of the process, genius.
    Maybe the should've offered constructive criticism instead of just crying "death panels!" and "socialism!"

  3. #203
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Toothpicvic View Post
    Maybe the should've offered constructive criticism instead of just crying "death panels!" and "socialism!"
    There have been many people that have offered a variety of solutions but they are not politically expedient and thus will never be adopted.

    Everyone wants their bread buttered, the facts are that in order to lower costs your going to have to decrease usage and/or increase the amount of medical personnel and facilities.

    None of the proposed bills, both Democrat and Republican, do that.
    Last edited by Harry Guerrilla; 12-25-09 at 06:12 AM.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
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  4. #204
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yeah, and if they didn't make me pay taxes, well, you know, they are linked. But linked is a way of admitting they are not the same thing. You don't go to jail for not having insurance. You have to break another separate law to go to jail.

    This is about the most disingenuous way of denying the reality of the situation that I can think of. It almost makes you feel for criminals like Al Capone.

    Look, I will freely say that wording in the legislation from the house, doesn't specifically say that if you don't buy health insurance, then you go to jail. However, the process is there to insure that this is a possible outcome is it not?

    There are likely myriads of things just like this spread out within a 2,000 page bill that is too arduous to read. That is the reason that it is so lengthy. Because, not only will the American people, many of whom are so busy with work, and other activities in their lives to read this steaming pile of crap, but couldn't understand the legalese to begin with. Hell, Senators that ARE lawyers won't read it, or don't understand it fully.

    Government never comes to you while taking your money and says that there is an option about anything concerned with the taking of that money. The option is to pay, period.


    Both can be challenged. However, that's a separate issue. The fact is you have to break a second law in order to be concerned about jail. Not having insurance does not land you in jail.

    Sure it does. Because if you don't buy Health Insurance, the law is that the fine is automatic. There is no one arbitrating whether or not you get the fine. Therefore, they are tied together as one. The Tax, is unconstitutional, And it is my sincere hope that someone has the balls to challenge this in court, and before this takes real effect.


    As I said, we can keep repeating all this if you care to, but until you show the basic fact to be false, which is that you do not go to jail because you don't have insurance, words like linked and speculation about things being harder do not change the basic facts.

    Here we go. Just like all the years I have known you Joe. Look, just because you repeat something over and over, doesn't make it a fact. As you told me once, things have many shades of grey. Right?


    j-mac
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  5. #205
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    Really? And why is that?

    Could it be, because the democrats won't tell America what's really in it?

    Based on the secrecy, lies, lack of transparency and bribing democrats for their votes, nobody should vote on this bill spawned from hell.
    You know Grim, I will agree with you on one item in this post. I felt the same way during the GW years and the "GOP congress contract with america" times.

    Those that lack power wish they had it, and they feel like the powerful party is corrupt.

    This is the problem with partisan politics.
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by The Truth View Post
    Each one of the items I listed would indeed save billions and the overall solution would lower prices for all and cover all the uninsured. Did you actually read through it?
    Honest question. Do you feel that if we started to save the insurance companies money, they would feel the need to respond is the same manner and lower prices, or not discontinue insurance for those with catastrophic (sic) illness?
    It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
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  7. #207
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    This bill does nothing to reign in medical care cost inflation and may in fact cause prices to rise, especially for younger people who are already hindered in their income with the recession.

    Things to expect;

    Decreased accessibility for seniors to find doctors.

    A general across the board rise in prices.

    Employers dropping coverage because it's cheaper to pay the fine than pay part of an employees insurance.
    What are you using to make this forecast?
    It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    6 mos after the bill goes into effect, insurance companies will not longer be able to deny coverage to children based on pre-existing conditions. People without kids might not fully understand what this means, but on this one point, I think it's a step in the right direction.

    Insurance companies can raise their rates, but the smart ones will figure about a better, more efficient way to do business. Offer better service at a more completive price.

    Also, the insurance exchange will put the power back in the hands of the consumer. Policies will be rated according to cost and coverage and quality of service and we'll have more information. There are many things about both bills that I don't like; it's not perfect, but it is indeed a happy Christmas.
    Hazlenut,

    Isn't this called capitalism? Hmmm, some say it is socialism?

    We work with cancer patients and have witnessed the crap insurance companies do to people with cancer. Honest working Americans, many GOP members, who voted for GW, Reagan, etc., and they were screwed and lost everything because the insurance companies profit margin, and the decision to drop them.

    If the GOP could come up with a solution to prevent this from happening, I'd jump ship and vote for it?
    It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
    Emiliano Zapata


  9. #209
    Advisor Plato's Avatar
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Quote Originally Posted by gunner View Post
    This has indeed been a polarising topic

    BBC News - US Senate passes landmark healthcare reform bill

    "The Senate bill was adopted by 60 votes to 39, with senators voting along party lines"

    "Fifty-eight Democrats and two independents backed the legislation, while Republicans voted unanimously against it"

    on the bright side,

    "The bill aims to cover 31m uninsured Americans and could lead to the biggest change in US healthcare in decades"

    What alternative is available for these 31m Americans?

    Some interesting views on our NHS [UK]

    BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Americans give their view on NHS

    for non emergency appointments

    "The current waiting time for an initial outpatient's appointment should be no longer than 13 weeks. Once at the outpatient clinic, you should be seen within 30 minutes of your appointment time"

    To get treatment

    "The waiting time to actually receive hospital treatment can vary depending on your local PCT. However, by the end of 2008, no patient should have to wait longer than 18 weeks for hospital treatment, after referral by their GP"

    How long will I have to wait to see a consultant?

    Emergencies are pretty much as soon as the Ambulance arrives at the hospital

    Paul
    I really love those stoopid people, the teabaggers or whatever they are called. Apparently all the people in Britain are telling them not to adopt the NHS model. When challenged, which people, they say "it's on the news". Would that be the biased liberal media making things up about what British people think?

    Why would they make lies that up when the British people, and any other free peoples who have socialized medicine, are overwhelmingly in favour of their systems and mostly wish it had the level of funding that the wasteful US system has?

    But then all these countries (practically the whole advanced industrialized world) that have socialized medicine are just communist tyrannies, where conservatives are all locked up, elections are banned, and the people cower as commisars and gauleiters stalk the streets.

    There was that priceless argument in America that if Stephen Hawking had been British, the NHS would have left him to die. That was my favorite.

    There are other lies of course. Such as the one that Princess Diana died because of socialized medicine. That Ted Kennedy would have been denied NHS treatment. There were lots of lies. And if you build a campaign on a tissue of lies, what better tactic than to endlessly call your opponent a liar, with no foundation whatsoever.

    The Right have done a lot of criticizing of their friends and allies over this, casting us as communists, and Nazis or Obama as such for wanting to lead the US a tenth of the way towards the systems we have. And of course they have found out that where we spend half of what Americans spend on healthcare in the UK we have some problems at the edge. They find people on waiting lists who keep getting bumped. They don't find too many people who due for lack of treatments.

    But when it is pointed out to them by American doctors that thousands of people due due to the American system, they come out with the "healthcare is not a right; it's a personal responsibility". Callousness has always been a conservative weakness, so much that it embarrases some. But here there is little embarrasssment for deaths. These people deserved it. They didn't take care of themselves. There is no such thing as bad fortune, unforeseen circumstance, circumstances beyond an individual's control. Just people, not taking responsibility. To be blamed for their own misfortune. It is a nice argument. It draws lines clearly. It reminds me why I am not a conservative. And why I find conservativism incompatible with Judeo Christian values. It's a dark, and evil creed that rejoices at so much suffering amidst so much prosperity and excess and that has so little concern for ones neighbour.

    This campaign has highlighted everything reprehensible about conservative ideology: its dishonesty, its embracing of ignorance, its reliance on demagoguery, its callousness, its economic illiteracy, its chauvinism, its estrangement from democracy and its intrinisc nastiness.

    And the fact that it has been defeated, which is always the fate of conservativism in the end, as progress rolls on and such reaction is confined to the dustbin of history.
    Last edited by Plato; 12-25-09 at 10:57 AM.
    There is a way to gain the whole world. It is to gain the people, and having gained them, one gains the whole world. There is a way to gain the people. Gain their hearts and minds and then you gain them. Mencius

  10. #210
    It's Just Boris.
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    Re: Senate OKs health care measure, reaching milestone

    Your problem, Plato, is that you are under the impression that if you quash Conservative thought, all would be hunky-dory, but there must be a buffer against the Liberal agenda, don't you think??


    11/8/16: A day of great relief for America

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