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Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

Boo Radley said:
So, do you go to jail for parking in the wrong place? Speeding?
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Both of those can be avoided by simply not speeding or parking in the wrong spot. How can you avoid getting Health insurance if you do not want it or cannot afford it? Apples and oranges.
 
Kal'Stang said:
BTW, as I have already told you before, this is not a tax it is a fine couched in tax terminology designed to create red tape.
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It is a tax and a fine. They are not mutually exclusive. ;)

But answer the question. If you're going to connect dots in this manner, do it with everything. Any time you don't pay a fine or a tax, jail is possible, and yet we don't argue the penalty for these things is jail. Know why? Because it isn't. Jail is the penalty for refusing to pay your tax, fine, or both.
 
Boo Radley said:
It is a tax and a fine. They are not mutually exclusive. ;)

But answer the question. If you're going to connect dots in this manner, do it with everything. Any time you don't pay a fine or a tax, jail is possible, and yet we don't argue the penalty for these things is jail. Know why? Because it isn't. Jail is the penalty for refusing to pay your tax, fine, or both.
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Since when is a tax a fine? Before this health care bill that is.
 
Boo Radley said:
When the fine is a tax. ;)

I see you're still skipping over the question.
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Name something other than this health care bill which is considered both a fine and a tax. Answer this and you may get your answer.
 
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Kal'Stang said:
Name something other than this health care bill which is considered both a fine and a tax. Answer this and you may get your answer.
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What's wrong with the example we have? It is a 2.5% tax. And it is a fine. You only need one to prove the point.

But you don't answer because you know I'm correct. Noted. ;)
 
Boo Radley said:
What's wrong with the example we have? It is a 2.5% tax. And it is a fine. You only need one to prove the point.

But you don't answer because you know I'm correct. Noted. ;)
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It can't be a tax because taxes are not for punitive purposes, fines are meant to punish people for non compliance, by your reasoning every fine is a tax which isn't true.

A percentage does not make something a tax.
 
why get caught up in symantics? How about it is a de facto tax, in that it is a cost imposed on individuals by the government.
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
It can't be a tax because taxes are not for punitive purposes, fines are meant to punish people for non compliance, by your reasoning every fine is a tax which isn't true.

A percentage does not make something a tax.
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N, not my reasoning. The fact is in this case the fine is a tax. You don't go to the court room and pay a fine, you pay a tax. I can't change what it is.
 
washunut said:
why get caught up in symantics? How about it is a de facto tax, in that it is a cost imposed on individuals by the government.
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Boo's been playing the semantics game through out this thread. Since he's wants to play it then it's time that it was played on him.

*gives some popcorn to washunut* sit back and enjoy the ride.
 
Boo Radley said:
N, not my reasoning. The fact is in this case the fine is a tax. You don't go to the court room and pay a fine, you pay a tax. I can't change what it is.
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A fine can be administered outside of a court room, you still have yet to prove that it is nothing but a fine.

The only way it can be considered a tax is that the fine must be reoccurring with no chance of compliance.

"A fine is money paid usually to superior authority, usually governmental authority, as punishment for a crime or other offense."

Fine (penalty) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"A tax may be defined as a "pecuniary burden laid upon individuals or property to support the government..."

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax]Tax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Boo Radley said:
N, not my reasoning. The fact is in this case the fine is a tax. You don't go to the court room and pay a fine, you pay a tax. I can't change what it is.
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I take it you can't name something else that is a tax and a fine?

No you don't pay a tax to any court room that you go to. You pay fines for breaking the law and a court cost for using up court time (IE a bill).
 
Kal'Stang said:
I take it you can't name something else that is a tax and a fine?

No you don't pay a tax to any court room that you go to. You pay fines for breaking the law and a court cost for using up court time (IE a bill).
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A fine can be considered a tax if compliance to the law is impossible.

That's about it.
 
Kal'Stang said:
I take it you can't name something else that is a tax and a fine?

No you don't pay a tax to any court room that you go to. You pay fines for breaking the law and a court cost for using up court time (IE a bill).
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Haven't looked. But we do have the present example before us, don't we?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
Setting a speed limit of 0 and issuing fines to everyone who broke the speed limit would be impossible and would essentially be a tax.
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False analogy. That's not equal to what is being done.
 
Kal'Stang said:
No we do not. The health care bill has not been made official as of yet. Therefore we need a current example that is official.
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Why? When it is official, will it be different?
 
Harry Guerrilla said:
I never claimed that, you asked "What compliance is impossible?"

I responded with a fictional situation of impossible compliance.
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I don't want a fictional example that doesn't compare. I want to know exactly what is impossible to comply with that is actually being proposed.
 
Boo Radley said:
I wish that made sense to me. The fine as proposed is a tax. I can't change that basic fact.
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Your using circular logic and I have already shown that a fine can only be a tax when it is impossible to comply with.

A fine is a penalty for non compliance, a tax is for general government revenue which this is not.

Why is it a tax?
 
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Harry Guerrilla said:
Your using circular logic and I have already shown that a fine can only be a tax when it is impossible to comply with.

A fine is a penalty for non compliance, a tax is for general government revenue which this is not.
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No, you have not show that. I have no idea why you think you have. I understand definitions, and don't dispute those definitions, but the fact remains, what is proposed is a 2.5% tax on those who don't comply. So, you "reasoning" aside, the fact is still the fact.

And I see nothing that can't be complied with, and you have not presented anything real that is proposed that can't be.
 
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