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Thread: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

  1. #21
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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    The claim that opposition to the Statists' healthcare objectives denotes a desire to maintain the status quo is a demonstrable straw-man.
    How ridiculous of an argument. The status quo is exactly what some want and make no bones about saying so. How it can't be part of this debate and inappropriately be called a straw-man is absurd. Do you even know what a straw-man is?

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Not really. You mean the fabricated claims of the attendance at the "Tea party" that was orchestrated by the right wing FAUX news or the misinformed and purposely disruptive few at the town hall meetings? I loved your obviously well informed woman that chanted she didn't want the government to get it's hands on Medicare. Hey lady! Medicare is the government! And then there was the genius that asked Barny Frank a Jew why he was supporting a "Nazi policy?" I'm sorry I refuse to insult the American people and try and sell the sham that this is MOST of the people. If it is we are in deep trouble.

    Some of you people keep telling the rest of us that MOST PEOPLE are against health care reform just because you are not for it. Just saying it's so doesn't make it so.
    Again, more straw men. Being opposed to this Statist wish list =/= being opposed to real healthcare reform.

    Tort reform to reign in the trial lawyers alone would lead to lower healthcare costs due to all of the unnecessary test that doctors would be free to forgo and not charge insurance for.

    If the opposition party floated a bill with only tort-reform, would your opposition to such a bill be wanting to maintain the status quo?

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    How ridiculous of an argument. The status quo is exactly what some want and make no bones about saying so. How it can't be part of this debate and inappropriately be called a straw-man is absurd. Do you even know what a straw-man is?


    A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.


    You misrepresent the opposition to the Statists' objectives via the healthcare takeover as being an opposition to healthcare reform.

    It's the textbook definition of what a straw man is...

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    … If there was a movement in congress to ban cars to reduce the number of fatal auto accidents each year, would you be consistent and say that anyone opposed to the banning of automobiles were just endorsing the status quo?
    Talk about straw men.

    I would be consistent in opposing the banning of automobiles which is an extreme, counterproductive and unrealistic solution and in doing so, offering alternative solutions for improving auto safety and reducing accidents by such things as endorsing crumple zone mandates, passive restraint mandates, restrictions on the sale of particularly dangerous vehicles, allocations of money towards improving roads, etc., etc.

    But, in the face of a clear hazard to our society, such as that posed by the health care crisis today, to offer nothing towards its resolution, indeed, to delay, distract and dismiss all possible efforts to address that hazard is to be irresponsible in the extreme. It is an endorsement to suffer the consequences of that hazard, which in the case of the health care crisis means the early deaths of tens of thousands of Americans each year.

    Today, the Democratic Party is moving forward with a plan to begin the process of addressing the health care crisis and we all should be grateful for that.

    “Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.” — Sir Winston Churchill, November 1942
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Talk about straw men.
    It's quite a good comparison really.

    I would be consistent in opposing the banning of automobiles which is an extreme, counterproductive and unrealistic solution and in doing so, offering alternative solutions for improving auto safety and reducing accidents by such things as endorsing crumple zone mandates, passive restraint mandates, restrictions on the sale of particularly dangerous vehicles, allocations of money towards improving roads, etc., etc.
    Imposing strict Government restrictions on free competition is equally as counterproductive & unrealistic to lower costs and expand coverage, although you seem to have bought it.

    But, in the face of a clear hazard to our society, such as that posed by the health care crisis is today, to offer nothing towards its resolution, indeed, to delay, distract and dismiss all possible efforts to address that hazard is to be irresponsible in the extreme. It is an endorsement to suffer the consequences of that hazard, which in the case of the health care crisis means the early deaths of tens of thousands of Americans each year.
    Explain to me clearly & immediately how this healthcare reform bill is going to save anyone's life?


    Today, the Democratic Party is moving forward with a plan to begin the process of addressing the health care crisis and we all should be grateful for that.
    Today the Democratic party is moving forward with a plan for state-ownership of the individual cloaked as being an effort to reform healthcare. We will rue this day.

    “Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.” — Sir Winston Churchill, November 1942
    "Since the general civilization of mankind,
    I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of freedoms
    of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of those in power
    than by violent and sudden usurpations." ~ James Madison, June 1788

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    “Today is a major step forward for the American people. After a nearly century-long struggle we are on the cusp of making healthcare reform a reality in the United States of America.” — President Barack Obama¹

    Huzzah!
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't slaves get medical care as a matter of course? Since that appears to be the path we wish to dance a merry jig down, I assume that health care will indeed be one of the benefits of becoming the property of the Ruling Class.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Not really. You mean the fabricated claims of the attendance at the "Tea party" that was orchestrated by the right wing FAUX news or the misinformed and purposely disruptive few at the town hall meetings? I loved your obviously well informed woman that chanted she didn't want the government to get it's hands on Medicare. Hey lady! Medicare is the government! And then there was the genius that asked Barny Frank a Jew why he was supporting a "Nazi policy?" I'm sorry I refuse to insult the American people and try and sell the sham that this is MOST of the people. If it is we are in deep trouble.

    Some of you people keep telling the rest of us that MOST PEOPLE are against health care reform just because you are not for it. Just saying it's so doesn't make it so.
    The fact that it's so makes it so.

    Health Care Reform - Rasmussen Reports

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    How ridiculous of an argument. The status quo is exactly what some want and make no bones about saying so. How it can't be part of this debate and inappropriately be called a straw-man is absurd. Do you even know what a straw-man is?
    It is a strawman. Just because the Republicans in Congress currently can't put anything forward because they're such a minority, doesn't mean they hate all reform. Find me a quote by a single Republican Senator proving that they don't want health care to be reformed at all, and then we'll talk.

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    The Democrats have embraced “big tent” politics, so major initiatives are often quite challenging when not a single vote can be spared. At the end of the day (year?) progress has been achieved and we should be grateful for that.
    You do know that from its point of view, a tumor's growth is progress too, yes?

    Is not decay the progress of soil enrichment? I believe that senility if the progress of eld, as well.

    The progress whereby iron comes into existence is the supernova.

    The progress of entropy is chaos.

    The progress of crime is wealth and prosperity for miscreants.

    Syphilis represents the progress of harlotry.

    In this light, yes I suppose that we have had progress today.
    Last edited by Oftencold; 12-19-09 at 05:17 PM.
    Quod scripsi, scripsi

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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by The silenced majority View Post
    … Tort reform to reign in the trial lawyers alone would lead to lower healthcare costs due to all of the unnecessary test that doctors would be free to forgo and not charge insurance for.

    If the opposition party floated a bill with only tort-reform, would your opposition to such a bill be wanting to maintain the status quo?
    The idea that tort reform alone could provide serious health care cost containment is, by most people familiar with the topic, a canard.

    “If you were to eliminate medical malpractice liability, even forgetting the negative consequences that would have for safety, accountability, and responsiveness, maybe we’d be talking about 1.5 percent of health care costs. So we’re not talking about real money. It’s small relative to the out-of-control cost of health care.” — Tom Baker, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania Law School and author of “The Medical Malpractice Myth.”¹

    “If you were to list the top five or ten things that you could do to bring down health care costs that would not be on the list.” — Michelle Mello, a professor of Law and Public Health at Harvard.²

    Excerpted from “Tort Reform Unlikely to Cut Health Care Costs; Studies Show Malpractice Awards Are Not Big Driver of Skyrocketing Costs” By Daphne Eviatar, The Washington Independent, 8/19/09 6:00 AM
    Amid the obstructionists’ claims that health care reform is “socialist” or a means of speeding Grandma towards her deathbed, a large focus of the conservative position on health care reform has been that frivolous lawsuits drive up health care costs and require doctors to practice “defensive medicine” that’s costly and wasteful. …

    The health economists and independent legal experts who study the issue, however, don’t believe that’s true. They say that malpractice liability costs are a small fraction of the spiraling costs of the U.S. health care system, and that the medical errors that malpractice liability tries to prevent are themselves a huge cost– both to the injured patients and to the health care system as a whole. …
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  10. #30
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    Re: Nelson says he'll support healthcare bill

    Quote Originally Posted by Oftencold View Post
    You do know that from its point of view, a tumor's growth is progress too, yes?

    Is not decay the progress of soil enrichment? I believe that senility if the progress of eld, as well.

    The progress whereby iron comes into existence is the supernova.

    The progress of entropy is chaos.

    The progress of crime is wealth and prosperity for miscreants.

    Syphilis represents the progress of harlotry.

    In this light, yes I suppose that we have had progress today.
    Do you know my point of view? Ridiculous hyperbole is sad.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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