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Thread: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

  1. #91
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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    To make use of unfairly.
    And who decides what fair is?

    What does tariffs have to do with 1st amendment rights?
    You can choose to work with someone or not. No one forces you.

    Considering the fact we are talking about China who knows.
    As far as we know it's free choice so it's fine.

    Which wars were specially started over tariffs?
    American entry into WWI.

    I think the history book you used in school must have had a guy wearing a tin foil hat on the cover along with a picture of Area 51 and bigfoot on the back of it.
    That's intellectual maturity.

    US involvement in WWI started over unrestricted German submarine warfare subs on ships carrying American civilians and the Zimmermann Telegram.
    Why did those things happen? Exactly.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I never said profit was evil. Where have I said profit was evil? Can you show me the post where I said that?
    You're making it sound like companies are doing wrong for trying to increase their profit margin.

    If a company outsources they are not decreasing wage for that particular job because it is outsourced to another country. How can you decrease a wage for a particual job if it no longer there in that country? IF we are going to pay people what someone if a 3rd world or communist dictatorship makes then what should your job pay when you get out of school?
    If you're getting an education you'll hopefully have more skills than someone in a 3rd world country.

    Companies increase their profit margins to make more money,not save you a few bucks.Companies does not give a **** about you.
    Except that they have to in order to make a profit.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #93
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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage
    I was under the impression that an assassination,arms race, territorial disputes and other factors started WWI. Who knew that it was tariffs that started WWI(sarcasm).
    The buildup to WW1 started with the uneven development of capitalism in Europe, which led to protectionist policies designed to help nurture growing national economies and eventually led to economic trade zones, which the world powers eventually came into conflict over due to the inability of capital to find new avenues of investment because of it. World War 1 happened because the major powers were fighting over control of markets and avenues of investment because there were no longer any unclaimed markets to conquer.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  4. #94
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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by Khayembii Communique View Post
    The buildup to WW1 started with the uneven development of capitalism in Europe, which led to protectionist policies designed to help nurture growing national economies and eventually led to economic trade zones, which the world powers eventually came into conflict over due to the inability of capital to find new avenues of investment because of it. World War 1 happened because the major powers were fighting over control of markets and avenues of investment because there were no longer any unclaimed markets to conquer.
    Kind of off-topic, but do you think that this was inevitable because of the way the countries developed or just because of the tariffs that were instituted?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    And who decides what fair is?.
    Paying someone significantly less for the same amount of work would be unfair. If your job you planned to get after you finished school started paying you what someone doing the same job in Mexico or some other dirt poor third world country made, would that be fair would, that be paying you the real wage for your job?


    You can choose to work with someone or not. No one forces you.
    How can I choose to work for or not work for if that company is outsourced to China? Besides outsourcing does not have anything to do with the 1st amendment.

    As far as we know it's free choice so it's fine.
    A communist dictatorship,are you serious?

    American entry into WWI.
    That has already been proven to be false.See previous post

    That's intellectual maturity.
    You did make the absurd suggestion that the US got involved in WWI over tariffs. Heck you are still making that claim. Why would anyone think you actually read a real history book instead of national Enquirer stuff?


    Why did those things happen? Exactly
    Americans in a British ocean liner being attacked by a German ship, Zimmermann Telegram. and the Germans attacking Merchant ships. Nothing to do with protectionism and tariffs.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    Kind of off-topic, but do you think that this was inevitable because of the way the countries developed or just because of the tariffs that were instituted?
    I don't see the difference between these two questions, so I can't really respond. These countries developed the way they did in part because of the tariffs and other policies that were implemented, so the answer to your question would be that it was inevitable because of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage
    A communist dictatorship,are you serious?
    China isn't communist.

    Americans in a British ocean liner being attacked by a German ship, Zimmermann Telegram. and the Germans attacking Merchant ships. Nothing to do with protectionism and tariffs.
    If you think such minor actions are the causes of one of the largest military conflicts in history then I believe it is you that needs to stop drinking the Kool Aid.
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 12-21-09 at 02:39 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Paying someone significantly less for the same amount of work would be unfair. If your job you planned to get after you finished school started paying you what someone doing the same job in Mexico or some other dirt poor third world country made, would that be fair would, that be paying you the real wage for your job?
    If you produce the same amount then yes it would be fair. You can't always win when you speculate, which is what education really amounts to.

    How can I choose to work for or not work for if that company is outsourced to China? Besides outsourcing does not have anything to do with the 1st amendment.
    The people in China choose to work there. They are not being exploited.

    A communist dictatorship,are you serious?
    Proof otherwise?

    Americans in a British ocean liner being attacked by a German ship, Zimmermann Telegram. and the Germans attacking Merchant ships. Nothing to do with protectionism and tariffs.
    So the US did not heavily favor the allies through trade before WWI?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    Kind of off-topic, but do you think that this was inevitable because of the way the countries developed or just because of the tariffs that were instituted?
    Another thing about this. I didn't think I'd be able to find this quote but I got lucky:

    Hilferding therefore argued that the function of protectionism had been completely transformed. 'From being a means of defence against the conquest of the domestic market by foreign industries it has become a means for the conquest of foreign markets by domestic industry' (FC: 310).

    As we have seen, the protective tariff brings the capitalist monopoly an extra profit on its sales in the domestic market. The larger the economic territory, the greater the volume of domestic sales . . . and the larger therefore the cartel's profits. The greater this profit, the higher the export subsidies can be, and the stronger therefore is the cartel's competitive position on the world market. (FC: 313)

    Protectionism divides the world into distinct national economic territories, and the rise of monopoly impels protectionism to new heights. This is the basis of a theory of imperialism... To quote him:

    The policy of finance capital has three objectives: (1) to establish the largest possible economic territory; (2) to close this territory to foreign competition by a wall of protective tariffs, and consequently (3) to reserve it as an area of exploitation for the national monopolistic combines. (FC: 320)

    Brewer, Anthony. Marxist Theories of Imperialism: A Critical Survey. 2nd Ed. pp.99-100
    Bold mine.

    And then there is this famous passage from Lenin's Imperialism: A Popular Outline:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenin
    But very brief definitions, although convenient, for they sum up the main points, are nevertheless inadequate, since we have to deduce from them some especially important features of the phenomenon that has to be defined. And so, without forgetting the conditional and relative value of all definitions in general, which can never embrace all the concatenations of a phenomenon in its full development, we must give a definition of imperialism that will include the following five of its basic features:

    (1) the concentration of production and capital has developed to such a high stage that it has created monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life; (2) the merging of bank capital with industrial capital, and the creation on the basis of this “finance capital”, of a financial oligarchy; (3) the export of capital as distinguished from the export of commodities acquires exceptional importance; (4) the formation of international monopoly capitalist associations which share the world among themselves, and (5) the territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers is completed. Imperialism is capitalism at that stage of development at which the dominance of monopolies and finance capital is established; in which the export of capital has acquired pronounced importance; in which the division of the world among the international trusts has begun, in which the division of all territories of the globe among the biggest capitalist powers has been completed.
    [Lenin, Imperialism the Highest Stage of Capitalism, LCW Volume 22, p. 266-7.]
    Last edited by Khayembii Communique; 12-21-09 at 03:07 AM.
    "I do not claim that every incident in the history of empire can be explained in directly economic terms. Economic interests are filtered through a political process, policies are implemented by a complex state apparatus, and the whole system generates its own momentum."

  9. #99
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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    I have been reading the arguments made in this thread, and at this point, find them very intelligent. However, I would argue against extremes in either direction.

    One extreme is to cut off China completely. We did this at one time, referring to China as "The Yellow Peril". A lot of good that did us. One good thing Nixon did was to open the door to China, and as a result, it's Communism has been moderated to a degree. That is a good thing.

    However, there is another extreme, which is allowing Communist China (Yes, China is still a Communist nation) to beat us, gaming our own Capitalist system by manipulating its currency, paying below poverty wages, and even using slave labor to unfairly unbalance the playing field. China has unfairly manipulated the market, successfully, with these and other shady methods, and as a result, we could eventually become dependent on, and even economically subservient, to China. The last words I ever want to hear would be from a Communist nation, saying "Uncle Sam, your banker will see you now". If China is going to game the system, and cheat, in order to gain an economic advantage, then tariffs are just what we need to stop it. And if China chooses to retaliate, then let the trade war begin. I will more than support our side in a trade war. After all, we are not the ones who started it by cheating. And we could win this war in seconds, by renouncing our debt, and refusing to pay it.

    Finally, our own forefathers warned us about foreign entanglements, and this also included economic entanglements. What a web we weave when we decide that comfort is more important than avoiding economic servitude. Once completely entangled in that web, all that remains is to wait for the spider to come down and suck our economic prosperity from us, thus turning us into a third world nation. We ignore our forefathers' advise at our own economic peril.

    IMHO, it is much better, and patriotic, for us to live a little less comfortably, at this time, than to become a client-state of a Communist nation, and losing a portion, however small, of our own economic freedom in the process. We should not give in. We should fight instead.
    Last edited by danarhea; 12-22-09 at 03:57 PM.
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    Re: Lipinski wants "buy American" wording in job legislation

    As a consumer, I make an effort to buy products made in the U.S. Walmart used to make a big deal about buying American products. I would like products to be clearly labeled so I can choose between buying something made in China, and buying something made by American workers.

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