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Thread: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    It really is sad you continue to deny the very basics in introducing a new law and supporting it with facts to support your argument to change the law.
    It's really sad that you still cannot see how you argue from non-logic. Let me demostrate:

    Lesson #1 Traditional marriage has been between a man and woman throughout the history of this country. It is a fact not a fallacy.
    Irrelevant. It doesn't prove your position. It is a Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition). Here is the definition:: This is the familiar argument that some policy, behavior, or practice is right or acceptable because "it's always been done that way. Just because it has been done this way, does not prove that it is correct. We are not arguing from a legal standpoint. If that were the case, every abortion argument would be won by the pro-choicers. Are you getting it, yet?

    Lesson #2 Laws passed in other countries are inconsequential since we do not live under a world government. We use our own Constitution and require people like you who want to change the law to back it up with a factual argument. That is the logical fallacy of your side since you have failed repeatedly to do so.
    You just contradicted yourself nicely. Thank you. If there is evidence that gay marriage is not harmful, even if this evidence is from other countries, then there is evidence that gay marriage is not harmful.

    So, you have given us one logical fallacy, and have given us evidence that you are wrong. Let's continue.

    Lesson #3 It is not a fallacy to vote as a majority on a ballot issue. The very fact you cannot understand that simply shows you do not understand how state government functions. The fallacy is for officials to deny the vote once the signatures were given by the people to vote on the law. You really need to do a little research on what propositions are and how they are lawful.
    Once again, you are demonstrating that you do not know how to debate. Just because the majority agrees on something does not mean it is right. This is the Argumentum ad numerum fallacy (argument or appeal to numbers). It is defined by this: this fallacy is the attempt to prove something by showing how many people think that it's true. But no matter how many people believe something, that doesn't necessarily make it true or right. Again, if you want to argue law, then anyone who disputes anything that is currently legal, loses. I will remember this when/if you and I debate on other topics.

    Lesson #4 It is a slippery slope argument and a factual one when you claim it is a "rights" issue to allow gay marriage. If you call it a rights issue it is a fallacy to believe you can restrict other alternative lifestyles when they use the same argument you are making. A "rights" argument does not end with homosexuality.
    You have no evidence of this, but I'd love to see it. I've already destroyed the "homosexuality leads to polygamy" argument several times, so be my guest to present it.

    #5 is the only one where you are correct and an important point when you read further down...

    Until you can provide factual studies not based on filled out unsurpervised questionaires that actually prove a genetic link that you claim exists, you have no basis to change the law to only narrowly allow gay marriage while excluding all other alternative lifestyles when you cannot even prove it isn't a choice which flies in the face of what we know of people who live one way then change their mind decades later or go to jail and engage in homosexual sex after being lifelong heterosexuals or finally, how some church groups have people who claimed to be gay only to be "cured". These are real life examples not theories or flawed studies. Its funny how so many people on your side flock to someone who comes out of the closet in their adult life but I wonder what you say to the people who claim they are gay only to renounce it later in life. Would you support their decision as well?
    Firstly, you STILL don't seem to grasp the concept of sexual orientation. There is no way to determine, genetically or biologically how sexual orientation is determined...thats BOTH hetero- AND homosexuality. You on your side always forget this simple fact. If one is not genetic, then neither are. Further, you STILL don't seem to grasp the difference between sexual orientation and sexual behavior, though I have explained it numerous times with many examples. My guess is that this is deliberate because it destroys your position.

    Its why this fails every single time it is brought forth to let the people decide. They understand you have no basis other than your belief in homosexuality being something you are born with and as #5 correctly points out, belief is not a argument to change the law.
    It fails every time because, like you, most people do not understand the concepts that cover the issue. Or, they don't want to. Take your pick.

    Civil unions are the compromise for everyone but the zealotry your side has in pretending gay marriage is equal to heterosexual marriage without evidence to support it will only result in more failed votes by the people.
    See, now this is how biased and closed-minded you are. In all of this, you've never asked me what my position is. My position is that all government sanctioned marriage should be eliminated and replaced with civil unions...for both straights and gays. Only religions can use the word marriage and sanction marriages. It is then up to THEM whether to allow gays to marry or not.

    So, what we have in your 5 points are 3 logical fallacies and a host of not understanding or refusing to understand concepts around the issue. I would have thought that after 100+ pages you would have gotten some information from this thread, but I suppose not.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    See, now this is how biased and closed-minded you are. In all of this, you've never asked me what my position is. My position is that all government sanctioned marriage should be eliminated and replaced with civil unions...for both straights and gays. Only religions can use the word marriage and sanction marriages. It is then up to THEM whether to allow gays to marry or not.
    And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a prime example of a marvelous faculty called "Logical Thinking".

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    It really is sad you continue to deny the very basics in introducing a new law and supporting it with facts to support your argument to change the law.

    Lesson #1 Traditional marriage has been between a man and woman throughout the history of this country. It is a fact not a fallacy.

    Lesson #2 Laws passed in other countries are inconsequential since we do not live under a world government. We use our own Constitution and require people like you who want to change the law to back it up with a factual argument. That is the logical fallacy of your side since you have failed repeatedly to do so.

    Lesson #3 It is not a fallacy to vote as a majority on a ballot issue. The very fact you cannot understand that simply shows you do not understand how state government functions. The fallacy is for officials to deny the vote once the signatures were given by the people to vote on the law. You really need to do a little research on what propositions are and how they are lawful.

    Lesson #4 It is a slippery slope argument and a factual one when you claim it is a "rights" issue to allow gay marriage. If you call it a rights issue it is a fallacy to believe you can restrict other alternative lifestyles when they use the same argument you are making. A "rights" argument does not end with homosexuality.

    #5 is the only one where you are correct and an important point when you read further down...

    Until you can provide factual studies not based on filled out unsurpervised questionaires that actually prove a genetic link that you claim exists, you have no basis to change the law to only narrowly allow gay marriage while excluding all other alternative lifestyles when you cannot even prove it isn't a choice which flies in the face of what we know of people who live one way then change their mind decades later or go to jail and engage in homosexual sex after being lifelong heterosexuals or finally, how some church groups have people who claimed to be gay only to be "cured". These are real life examples not theories or flawed studies. Its funny how so many people on your side flock to someone who comes out of the closet in their adult life but I wonder what you say to the people who claim they are gay only to renounce it later in life. Would you support their decision as well?

    Its why this fails every single time it is brought forth to let the people decide. They understand you have no basis other than your belief in homosexuality being something you are born with and as #5 correctly points out, belief is not a argument to change the law.

    Civil unions are the compromise for everyone but the zealotry your side has in pretending gay marriage is equal to heterosexual marriage without evidence to support it will only result in more failed votes by the people.
    Wow, I guess some people who are opposed to same sex marriage really do not know how to use basic logic. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, but actually following through on the fallacies I listed...wow...sad. Regardless of whether you oppose or support same sex marriage, please learn how to utilize basic reasoning skills. I feel painfully embarrassed for you after reading what you just typed.

    Appeal to tradition fallacy - Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition
    Appeal to majority fallacy - Fallacy: Appeal to Popularity
    Slippery slope fallacy - Fallacy: Slippery Slope
    Last edited by CriticalThought; 12-28-09 at 03:56 AM.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Wow, I guess some people who are opposed to same sex marriage really do not know how to use basic logic. I always give people the benefit of the doubt, but actually following through on the fallacies I listed...wow...sad. Regardless of whether you oppose or support same sex marriage, please learn how to utilize basic reasoning skills. I feel painfully embarrassed for you after reading what you just typed.

    Appeal to tradition fallacy - Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition
    Appeal to majority fallacy - Fallacy: Appeal to Popularity
    Slippery slope fallacy - Fallacy: Slippery Slope
    This has been the issue through this entire debate. The opposition does not have logic on their side. There IS a logical defense, but none of the folks debating this, currently, use it; it doesn't follow with their agenda.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This has been the issue through this entire debate. The opposition does not have logic on their side. There IS a logical defense, but none of the folks debating this, currently, use it; it doesn't follow with their agenda.
    What would that logical defense be in your opinion?

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    This has been the issue through this entire debate. The opposition does not have logic on their side. There IS a logical defense, but none of the folks debating this, currently, use it; it doesn't follow with their agenda.
    You know, this isn't fair. I need to give these guys a chance to prove that they are not as illogical as they seem to be coming off. For the sake of determining whether they even have the basic reasoning skills to warrant discussing the issue with them, or anyone for that matter, I think a litmus test is in order. So I welcome any of the opposition to same sex marriage to answer these five simple questions...

    Same sex marriage litmus test...

    1. Is it true that since marriage has traditionally been between a man and a woman then only marriage between a man and a woman is correct?
    2. Is it true that since majority of people reject same sex marriage that automatically proves that same sex marriage is wrong?
    3. Is it true that same sex marriage will lead to polygamy?
    4. Can it automatically be assumed that same sex marriage will cause harm to this country despite evidence that it has caused no such major harm in other countries that have it?
    5. Are you an authority on homosexuality based simply on what your religious beliefs say about the topic? In other words, do you know everything of relevance about homosexuality and same sex marriage based simply on what your religious scriptures say?

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    What would that logical defense be in your opinion?
    The only logical defense that gives me any problems at all in this debate is the position that government should get out of marriage entirely; no benefits, nothing. It is a logical position and is defensible. I have plenty of information that demonstrates the health, social, and societal benefits of government sanctioned marriage, so it is usually a very lively debate that often ends in an agreement to disagree... though I can pretty much prove that the benefits outweigh the negatives. It often heads into a debate about rights. Ethereal is very good at this opposing position.

    However, in as far as opposing GM, but sanctioning straight marriage, I haven't seen an argument that I couldn't take apart, easily.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 12-28-09 at 04:33 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #1308
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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    The only logical defense the gives me any problems at all in this debate is the position that government should get out of marriage entirely; no benefits, nothing. It is a logical position and is defensible. I have plenty of information that demonstrates the health, social, and societal benefits of government sanctioned marriage, so it is usually a very lively debate that often ends in an agreement to disagree... though I can pretty much prove that they benefits outweigh the negatives. It often heads into a debate about rights. Ethereal is very good at this opposing position.

    However, in as far as opposing GM, but sanctioning straight marriage, I haven't seen an argument that I couldn't take apart, easily.
    Okay cool i see your POV. I disagree but I understand. I do think there are reasons for government to be involved in marriage. Things like inheriting a house from a spouse and hospital visitation rights as well as creating a more stable society.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Okay cool i see your POV. I disagree but I understand. I do think there are reasons for government to be involved in marriage. Things like inheriting a house from a spouse and hospital visitation rights as well as creating a more stable society.
    I agree with you. All I did was tell you the only logical position as a defense against GM. It is entirely logical to debate FOR government to be out of marriage. It's a pretty "tight" position and much harder to oppose than what we have been seeing in this thread, thus far.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  10. #1310
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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Irrelevant. It doesn't prove your position. It is a Argumentum ad antiquitatem (the argument to antiquity or tradition).
    His problem is much worse than that. He said "it's a fact not a fallacy" - meaning he doesn't even understand what a logical fallacy is, meaning he doesn't know what logic is.

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