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Thread: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    This is just another incident where activists try and circumvent the will of the people
    We live in a Republic, not a Democracy. Get used to it.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    That does not take away the fact that when the people voted gay marriage was shot down every single time........
    Nor does it change the fact that DC had a law on the books that they felt they had to follow. Read the source material.
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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    That does not take away the fact that when the people voted gay marriage was shot down every single time........
    Appeal to the majority is not a logical argument.

    Prop 8 is on its way to Federal Court.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    That does not take away the fact that when the people voted gay marriage was shot down every single time........
    "The third-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the majority. The second-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking with the minority. The first-rate mind is only happy when it is thinking."

    -A. A. Milne

    There is no evidence to suggest that same sex marriage would be anything but beneficial for the country. The biggest predictor for support of same sex marriage is level of education and that is reflected in the strong support base in the nation's youth. People voted against same sex marriage because they were ignorant and afraid, but it is fear and ignorance itself that is losing the battle with time.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    This is just another incident where activists try and circumvent the will of the people
    Yeah! Kind of like these activists! Damn anti-democratic agitators circumventing the will of the people!




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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by hazlnut View Post
    Appeal to the majority is not a logical argument.

    Prop 8 is on its way to Federal Court.
    and the only reason I would support a federal amendment. Normally, I'd land on the policy of states rights on this issue, but then, some radicals..as we can plainly see here....would like to see the feds step all over a voter decision o marriage in any particular state. And if the courts don't get it, I'd support a federal amendment that cannot be misinterpreted, any court doing what they're supposed to be doing...interpreting rather than making law...wouldn't have difficulty making a ruling.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    and the only reason I would support a federal amendment. Normally, I'd land on the policy of states rights on this issue, but then, some radicals..as we can plainly see here....would like to see the feds step all over a voter decision o marriage in any particular state. And if the courts don't get it, I'd support a federal amendment that cannot be misinterpreted, any court doing what they're supposed to be doing...interpreting rather than making law...wouldn't have difficulty making a ruling.
    I'm just curious, what would be the basis for a federal amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman?

    I can only see five ways that you could answer such a question. Not a single one is consistent with reason.

    1. An appeal to tradition fallacy. (marriage has always been between a man and a woman)
    2. Ignoring the countries that have legalized same sex marriage and making a fallacious argument that it would be somehow harmful to this country.
    3. An appeal to the majority fallacy. (most people don't agree with same sex marriage)
    4. A slippery slope fallacy. (if we allow same sex marriage then we have to allow polygamy)
    5. Religious condemnation. (its a sin)

    Please prove me wrong and provide some rational that isn't listed above for why a federal amendment banning same sex marriage would be a good idea.

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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    I'm just curious, what would be the basis for a federal amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman?

    I can only see five ways that you could answer such a question. Not a single one is consistent with reason.

    1. An appeal to tradition fallacy. (marriage has always been between a man and a woman)
    2. Ignoring the countries that have legalized same sex marriage and making a fallacious argument that it would be somehow harmful to this country.
    3. An appeal to the majority fallacy. (most people don't agree with same sex marriage)
    4. A slippery slope fallacy. (if we allow same sex marriage then we have to allow polygamy)
    5. Religious condemnation. (its a sin)

    Please prove me wrong and provide some rational that isn't listed above for why a federal amendment banning same sex marriage would be a good idea.
    I think you just summarized the flaws in the "opposition's" argument from A to Z. This is why their position is invalid.

    Good post.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I think you just summarized the flaws in the "opposition's" argument from A to Z. This is why their position is invalid.

    Good post.
    It really is sad you continue to deny the very basics in introducing a new law and supporting it with facts to support your argument to change the law.

    Lesson #1 Traditional marriage has been between a man and woman throughout the history of this country. It is a fact not a fallacy.

    Lesson #2 Laws passed in other countries are inconsequential since we do not live under a world government. We use our own Constitution and require people like you who want to change the law to back it up with a factual argument. That is the logical fallacy of your side since you have failed repeatedly to do so.

    Lesson #3 It is not a fallacy to vote as a majority on a ballot issue. The very fact you cannot understand that simply shows you do not understand how state government functions. The fallacy is for officials to deny the vote once the signatures were given by the people to vote on the law. You really need to do a little research on what propositions are and how they are lawful.

    Lesson #4 It is a slippery slope argument and a factual one when you claim it is a "rights" issue to allow gay marriage. If you call it a rights issue it is a fallacy to believe you can restrict other alternative lifestyles when they use the same argument you are making. A "rights" argument does not end with homosexuality.

    #5 is the only one where you are correct and an important point when you read further down...

    Until you can provide factual studies not based on filled out unsurpervised questionaires that actually prove a genetic link that you claim exists, you have no basis to change the law to only narrowly allow gay marriage while excluding all other alternative lifestyles when you cannot even prove it isn't a choice which flies in the face of what we know of people who live one way then change their mind decades later or go to jail and engage in homosexual sex after being lifelong heterosexuals or finally, how some church groups have people who claimed to be gay only to be "cured". These are real life examples not theories or flawed studies. Its funny how so many people on your side flock to someone who comes out of the closet in their adult life but I wonder what you say to the people who claim they are gay only to renounce it later in life. Would you support their decision as well?

    Its why this fails every single time it is brought forth to let the people decide. They understand you have no basis other than your belief in homosexuality being something you are born with and as #5 correctly points out, belief is not a argument to change the law.

    Civil unions are the compromise for everyone but the zealotry your side has in pretending gay marriage is equal to heterosexual marriage without evidence to support it will only result in more failed votes by the people.
    Last edited by texmaster; 12-28-09 at 03:08 AM.
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    Re: DC City Council votes to legalize gay marriage

    Quote Originally Posted by texmaster View Post
    It really is sad you continue to deny the very basics in introducing a new law and supporting it with facts to support your argument to change the law.

    Lesson #1 Traditional marriage has been between a man and woman throughout the history of this country. It is a fact not a fallacy.
    And traditionally women often had no say in the marriage and were treated as chattel. Should we go back to that sort of marriage?

    Lesson #2 Laws passed in other countries are inconsequential since we do not live under a world government. We use our own Constitution and require people like you who want to change the law to back it up with a factual argument. That is the logical fallacy of your side since you have failed repeatedly to do so.
    Meh, international laws merely hammer in the point that the US is trailing in such issues.

    Lesson #3 It is not a fallacy to vote as a majority on a ballot issue. The very fact you cannot understand that simply shows you do not understand how state government functions. The fallacy is for officials to deny the vote once the signatures were given by the people to vote on the law. You really need to do a little research on what propositions are and how they are lawful.
    Sic Semper Tyrannis, as they say - in this case the tyrant is the majority.

    Lesson #4 It is a slippery slope argument and a factual one when you claim it is a "rights" issue to allow gay marriage. If you call it a rights issue it is a fallacy to believe you can restrict other alternative lifestyles when they use the same argument you are making. A "rights" argument does not end with homosexuality.
    Right, so because we allow two consenting adults who both have legal standing and are of age marry it automatically gives legal standing to dogs and other animals so they can marry humans. I totally see the logic there.

    Until you can provide factual studies not based on filled out unsurpervised questionaires that actually prove a genetic link that you claim exists, you have no basis to change the law to only narrowly allow gay marriage while excluding all other alternative lifestyles when you cannot even prove it isn't a choice which flies in the face of what we know of people who live one way then change their mind decades later or go to jail and engage in homosexual sex after being lifelong heterosexuals or finally, how some church groups have people who claimed to be gay only to be "cured". These are real life examples not theories or flawed studies. Its funny how so many people on your side flock to someone who comes out of the closet in their adult life but I wonder what you say to the people who claim they are gay only to renounce it later in life. Would you support their decision as well?
    You call it "curing", I call it "brainwashing" - tactics which religious groups have been using for centuries.

    Its why this fails every single time it is brought forth to let the people decide. They understand you have no basis other than your belief in homosexuality being something you are born with and as #5 correctly points out, belief is not a argument to change the law.
    Your point? There is such a thing as tyranny by majority, and Prop 8 was a classic case of it.

    Civil unions are the compromise for everyone but the zealotry your side has in pretending gay marriage is equal to heterosexual marriage without evidence to support it will only result in more failed votes by the people.
    Seperate but equal is inherently unequal, as the saying goes.

    You base your arguments on the assumption that "marriage" is this almighty sacred institution - well it's not. It is simply a contract revolving around an exchange of property, and has been that way since the dawn of civilization. Comparing straight marriage to gay marriage is like comparing buying a pair of sunglasses to buying a bracelet; they are the same type of contract, plain and simple.

    Personally, I'd rather get rid of marriage entirely in the legislation and replace it with union; the laicitous way tends to be the fairest.

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