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Thread: With Eye to 2010 Election, Dems Prepare to Raise U.S. Borrowing Limit by Nearly $2T

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    To get there, [Clinton] couldn't cut down spending on entitlements so he had to cut intelligence and military
    Which made sense at the time as the US military was geared towards fighting an enemy that no longer existed. Why maintain a massive force built around destroying a Soviet-Warsaw pact force that no longer existed?
    Because we still had a 2 theater requirement at the QDR level. He cut us to the bone just to be able to say he (almost) balanced the budget. Intelligence was also cut off at the knees. All of our HUMINT resources gone.

    They both had to be rebuilt.



    Iraq was unnecessary war that made up the bulk of the additional costs. Take that out and we would have been in a far better financial picture.
    Iraq was a justified war. We need the available funds to pursue such courses of action. What non-interventionists would like to do is increase entitlements to the point where we can't go to war.

    That kind of deficit is in line with deficit's run by Reagan, Bush Sr. etc. That is the kind of deficit you can grow your way out of.
    Except we've never been able to do that. The only time we got close to getting a balanced budget was with significant cuts. You can't just grow yourself out of a deficit. Furthermore, Congress will constantly spend money as the economy grows. We saw domestic spending explode as well under the all GOP years during boom years. Congress will feed itself and continue deficits.
    I am not expert but the way I think this works is that as the economy grows, the percentage of GDP owed as debt decreases. There is probably some optimal percentage of GDP that debt should be so as the economy grows, you can maintain deficit spending.

    Somehow Obama has taken it to a $1.7 trillion deficit!!
    Significant amounts which came over from the past fiscal year. People tend to ignore this.
    Significant amounts? You have evidence to back that up?


    Obama's spending in a recession is totally unacceptable.
    Not really. What is unacceptable is the timeliness of spending.

    Deficit spending during recessions is acceptable.
    Deficit spending during expansions is never.
    $1.7 trillion is a ridiculous amount of deficit.

    Deficit spending is ok during expansions.

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by carlkay58 View Post
    What's to worry - the rich will pay for it all! No one with incomes less than $250,000 will have to pay anything for any of this spending. So sit back, relax, and be comforted that you are benefiting from the grand and benign governing of the Democratic elite who knows what is best for you.

    I can't believe I just typed that shrek! Gotta go wash my hands off with some whiskey and disinfect them!
    Hehehehehe, hahahahaha
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Because we still had a 2 theater requirement at the QDR level. He cut us to the bone just to be able to say he (almost) balanced the budget. Intelligence was also cut off at the knees. All of our HUMINT resources gone.

    They both had to be rebuilt.





    Iraq was a justified war. We need the available funds to pursue such courses of action. What non-interventionists would like to do is increase entitlements to the point where we can't go to war.



    I am not expert but the way I think this works is that as the economy grows, the percentage of GDP owed as debt decreases. There is probably some optimal percentage of GDP that debt should be so as the economy grows, you can maintain deficit spending.



    Significant amounts? You have evidence to back that up?




    $1.7 trillion is a ridiculous amount of deficit.

    Deficit spending is ok as long as you're buying Democratic votes.
    Fixed it for you.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackboot View Post
    This is insanity....no, this is a crime, this is the reason we have a constitution, this country has gone off the rails!
    The REPS&DEMS have hijack our country! But the Sheeple keep putting them
    back in power !!!! So it looks like we are getting what were deserve!

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by NoMoreDems-Reps View Post
    The REPS&DEMS have hijack our country! But the Sheeple keep putting them
    back in power !!!! So it looks like we are getting what were deserve!
    That sounds real nice, but it's total bull****. Other parties have existed over the past 200 years, but their followings have dwindled or never grown enough. There is likely a reason for that probably because there are only two real fundamental sides to politics in the US, with only minor other differences.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    That sounds real nice, but it's total bull****. Other parties have existed over the past 200 years, but their followings have dwindled or never grown enough. There is likely a reason for that probably because there are only two real fundamental sides to politics in the US, with only minor other differences.
    I'll differ with this on a few of levels.

    The first is that many issues, not all but many, are not black and white issues. That parties try to take extreme positions and turn it into a black and white issue. I am trying to think of a good example...how about civil rights erosion due to the Patriot Act. The Dems would have you believe that none of the provisions are good, while the GOP would say that more are needed. What is needed is the right mixture. Some of our civil liberties are going to be strained out of a very real need for security.

    The second is that most Americans are in the middle and the Parties are on the extremes.

    The third is that parties represent many extreme positions on black and white issues they have characterized. A person of that party adopts all of those positions. Likewise for the other major party. The middle adopts some from each side. I think there are more independents than there are either Dems or GOP.

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Because we still had a 2 theater requirement at the QDR level. He cut us to the bone just to be able to say he (almost) balanced the budget. Intelligence was also cut off at the knees. All of our HUMINT resources gone.

    They both had to be rebuilt.
    But when you consider just how the military and intelligence was focused, they would have had to be rebuilt regardless. Moving from operations focused around stopping massive conventional tank heavy armies to fighting elusive, asymmetrical, nation-less opponents is in many ways a huge paradigm shift. Most people don't realize just how different our military is now compared to 10 years ago. It made no sense to maintain an army designed to fight a non-existent army.

    Iraq was a justified war.
    No it wasn't. Iraq wasn't a threat to anyone but itself, has extremely weak ties to terrorism (compared to our Saudi "friends"). Nor did it have any WMD.

    I am not expert but the way I think this works is that as the economy grows, the percentage of GDP owed as debt decreases. There is probably some optimal percentage of GDP that debt should be so as the economy grows, you can maintain deficit spending.
    In theory as the economy grows increased tax revenues would reduce the debt. However, in reality, Congress just keeps taking bigger pieces of the pie. We haven't run a surplus in decades. You can't grow yourself out of deficits when your people in charge, and this goes for both parties, see no reason to stop helping themselves to the pie.

    Significant amounts? You have evidence to back that up?
    Look at what makes up that deficit. How much of that is purely Obama? Good luck with that.

    $1.7 trillion is a ridiculous amount of deficit.
    True, but so is deficit spending during expansions.

    Deficit spending is ok during expansions.
    Only in a dream world where Congress is fiscally conservative. We don't have a fiscally conservative party other then the Constitutionalists and Libertarians. The GOP is just as fiscally liberal as the Democrats. They just lie about being fiscally conservative until they get into power.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But when you consider just how the military and intelligence was focused, they would have had to be rebuilt regardless. Moving from operations focused around stopping massive conventional tank heavy armies to fighting elusive, asymmetrical, nation-less opponents is in many ways a huge paradigm shift. Most people don't realize just how different our military is now compared to 10 years ago. It made no sense to maintain an army designed to fight a non-existent army.
    I agree, but we could have seen it coming in the 90s with the embassy bombings and the the USS Cole. The institution of the Military has been very opposed to giving up its tank heavy model and considering asymmetrical threats. Witness how long it took to switch to a COIN strategy in Iraq.

    Iraq was a justified war.
    No it wasn't. Iraq wasn't a threat to anyone but itself, has extremely weak ties to terrorism (compared to our Saudi "friends"). Nor did it have any WMD.
    It is precisely because Iraq was a threat to itself that the war was justified. It was correctly a humanitarian intervention. We did not know it had no WMD, at the time.

    In theory as the economy grows increased tax revenues would reduce the debt. However, in reality, Congress just keeps taking bigger pieces of the pie. We haven't run a surplus in decades. You can't grow yourself out of deficits when your people in charge, and this goes for both parties, see no reason to stop helping themselves to the pie.
    Agreed. You can't grow out of the deficit but you can sustain it.

    Look at what makes up that deficit. How much of that is purely Obama? Good luck with that.
    As far as the $1.7 trillion, I would say 75% of it is Obama's spending. Maybe $450 is TARP from Bush.

    Deficit spending is ok during expansions.
    Only in a dream world where Congress is fiscally conservative. We don't have a fiscally conservative party other then the Constitutionalists and Libertarians. The GOP is just as fiscally liberal as the Democrats. They just lie about being fiscally conservative until they get into power.
    You'll have to start adding the Whigs as another fiscally conservative party.
    Last edited by reefedjib; 12-13-09 at 05:26 PM.

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    I agree, but we could have seen it coming in the 90s with the embassy bombings and the the USS Cole. The institution of the Military has been very opposed to giving up its tank heavy model and considering asymmetrical threats.
    Which in many ways is better after the Clinton cuts. With fewer assets and troops to refocus, it's cheaper and faster. When you have massive equipment and training issues, it's much harder to refocus. Generally it's easier to rebuild a smaller force specifically geared towards a new purpose and build upon that then to turn a huge force towards something very alien to it. Ironically, Clinton's cuts would, had Iraq not occurred, made Rummy's RMA much easier.

    It is precisely because Iraq was a threat to itself that the war was justified.
    Say what? We are not the world's police. Under that argument, China and Russia are threats to themselves. Do you want to invade then?

    It was correctly a humanitarian intervention.
    Not in 2003. The massacre of the Shiites would have been a correct humanitarian intervention.

    We did not know it had no WMD, at the time.
    But we did know the Intel was very shaky and came from unreliable sources. The Chezks flagged curveball as a lying drunk. Chalabi was known to be unreliable. Furthermore, many inspectors did say that Iraq didn't have. The Intel was crap and we knew it.

    Agreed. You can't grow out of the deficit but you can sustain it.
    But there's no need to sustain it.

    As far as the $1.7 trillion, I would say 75% of it is Obama's spending. Maybe $450 is TARP from Bush.
    Are you including other Bush era programs that are being funded under Obama? Granted that does make Obama partially responsible.

    CBO Projected Deficit, by Source | The Big Picture

    Not entirely sure what that extra $300 billion is from.

    You'll have to start adding the Whigs as another fiscally conservative party.
    Sadly, none of them have a chance.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

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    Re: Dems To Raise Debt Ceiling by 1.8 Trillion

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    But when you consider just how the military and intelligence was focused, they would have had to be rebuilt regardless. Moving from operations focused around stopping massive conventional tank heavy armies to fighting elusive, asymmetrical, nation-less opponents is in many ways a huge paradigm shift. Most people don't realize just how different our military is now compared to 10 years ago. It made no sense to maintain an army designed to fight a non-existent army.
    Mission transitioning doesn't require rebuilding of the military. We didn't get rid of any tanks, or artillery. We only re-trained those soldiers to perform an infantry mission. Bascially, it was fine tuning, because everyone receives fundemental infantry training in BCT (Basic Combat Training).
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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