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Thread: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Okay, first of all, I didn't say it's always illegal. It can be though.

    In a nutshell:

    1. The First Amendment says you can't "respect an establishment of religion."
    Wow man...I mean...holy ****, really.

    The first amendment does not prevent you from respecting an establishment of religion. You are free to respect or disrespect whatever you like.

    The first amendment regards laws, not personal opinions. You might do well to at least read your own links.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    And yet, it actually prohibits only the "establishment" of a religion by the government. There is nothing regarding whether or not the government may "endorse" a religion,
    To endorse is to establish.

    The issue is whether or not some judge believes a religious symbol set up on public property is really the govermnent establishing that the symbol is the establishment of a new government religion or not. My interpretation is that that's a stretch, but I'm no judge.
    The only reason you don't see the obvious is because you're used to it.

    Suppose you walked into a town hall and saw a giant "Allahu Akhbar" sign on the front. Or crucifixes and Bible verses on every wall. You wouldn't suspect that the government might favor one religion over another? You wouldn't think you might face pressure to conform to one religion in order to get better treatment? You don't see religious symbols all over the place as evidence that the government just might be sending you a message? Especially if you ask to put up symbols for your own religion but are denied?

    The First Amendment doesn't just say "establish religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion." It can't do anything that looks like or comes close to establishing a religion. This goes far beyond simply declaring an official religion. It means the government can't go around advancing or endorsing a particular religion, even if it doesn't come out and say it's "official."

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    To endorse is to establish.



    The only reason you don't see the obvious is because you're used to it.

    Suppose you walked into a town hall and saw a giant "Allahu Akhbar" sign on the front. Or crucifixes and Bible verses on every wall. You wouldn't suspect that the government might favor one religion over another? You wouldn't think you might face pressure to conform to one religion in order to get better treatment? You don't see religious symbols all over the place as evidence that the government just might be sending you a message? Especially if you ask to put up symbols for your own religion but are denied?

    The First Amendment doesn't just say "establish religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion." It can't do anything that looks like or comes close to establishing a religion. This goes far beyond simply declaring an official religion. It means the government can't go around advancing or endorsing a particular religion, even if it doesn't come out and say it's "official."
    For the sake of argument here, what if you are NOT denied when you ask if you can put up symbols for your own religion? And are you implying that the government can stop individual entities (people, companies, or corporations) from putting up religous symbols on their own property? Because where I live there is very little government land and a whole lot of private land.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wow man...I mean...holy ****, really.

    The first amendment does not prevent you from respecting an establishment of religion. You are free to respect or disrespect whatever you like.

    The first amendment regards laws, not personal opinions. You might do well to at least read your own links.
    This is beyond hilarious. You actually think "respecting" is about personal opinions or something. God, the whacky stuff people come up with when they have no idea what they are talking about.

    From the First Amendment:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

    It means "with respect to" as in referring or relating to. Not respecting as in respect vs. disrespect.

    You might do well to go read something, anything, about this before you spew your opinions.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by carlkay58 View Post
    For the sake of argument here, what if you are NOT denied when you ask if you can put up symbols for your own religion?
    That would be entirely different. If anyone can put up their religious symbols, it's just a wall for people to put up stuff. The government isn't choosing sides. It's fine with me.

    And are you implying that the government can stop individual entities (people, companies, or corporations) from putting up religous symbols on their own property?
    Absolutely, positively NOT. That is just as protected by the First Amendment. Private citizens are protected from the government "prohibiting the free exercise" of their religion.

    Because where I live there is very little government land and a whole lot of private land.
    And I urge people who seem to have this desire to put up their own little religious displays on public property to just go put them up on their own property. There are plenty of homes and churches and private land for that. Why the need to put them up on public property - if not to get the tacit endorsement from the goverment?

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    To endorse is to establish..
    just semantics. The actual wording is "establishment," which has a clearer connotation than "endorse."

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post

    Suppose you walked into a town hall and saw a giant "Allahu Akhbar" sign on the front. Or crucifixes and Bible verses on every wall. You wouldn't suspect that the government might favor one religion over another? You wouldn't think you might face pressure to conform to one religion in order to get better treatment? You don't see religious symbols all over the place as evidence that the government just might be sending you a message? Especially if you ask to put up symbols for your own religion but are denied?
    As I said, I don't consider the public display of religious symbols as the "establishment" of a state religion, as I am in no way compelled by force to follow that religion. Once that line is crossed, when they fine me for not attending synogue or something, then there is a problem.


    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    The First Amendment doesn't just say "establish religion" it says "respecting an establishment of religion." It can't do anything that looks like or comes close to establishing a religion. This goes far beyond simply declaring an official religion. It means the government can't go around advancing or endorsing a particular religion, even if it doesn't come out and say it's "official."
    "establishment" is the key word. Allowing symbols to be displayed is not the same as forcing someone to kneel before said symbol against their will.
    Last edited by other; 12-07-09 at 10:14 PM.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    just semantics. The actual wording is "establishment," which has a clearer connotation than "endorse."
    The actual wording is "respecting an establishment of religion".

    As I said, I don't consider the public display of religious symbols as the "establishment" of a state religion, as I am in no way compelled by force to follow that religion. Once that line is crossed, when they fine me for not attending synogue or something, then there is a problem.
    But the actual wording is "respecting an establishment of religion."

    Just a side note, whether or not it has legal bearing - doesn't it bother you that the government chooses to put up a display, possibly even using your money, to make a statement that appears to endorse one religion over others? Even if you aren't forced to practice it, doesn't it bother you? Especially if it isn't your religion?

    You're using the wrong version of the word "respect." They didn't mean respect as in to show deference, but respect as in "concerning," ie. "Obama knows very little with respect to free market capitalism"
    No, that's how I'm using it too. It means "related to" - in other words, it doesn't have to be an explicit law establishing an official religion.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by other View Post
    "establishment" is the key word. Allowing symbols to be displayed is not the same as forcing someone to kneel before said symbol against their will.
    No, "respecting an establishment" is the key phrase.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    Wrong again.

    Christmas is a federal holiday because 95% of the workforce would take it off with vacation time anyway, so there's no point in keeping the office open.
    HURR DURR, it was sarcasm CLEARLY marked this time with a for people like YOU. Please put the keyboard down, sir, and step away from the computer.

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    Re: Sarah Palin says US should rededicate itself to God

    Quote Originally Posted by misterman View Post
    This is beyond hilarious. You actually think "respecting" is about personal opinions or something. God, the whacky stuff people come up with when they have no idea what they are talking about.

    From the First Amendment:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

    It means "with respect to" as in referring or relating to. Not respecting as in respect vs. disrespect.

    You might do well to go read something, anything, about this before you spew your opinions.
    JUST STOP ALREADY! PUT THE SHOVEL DOWN! You're digging a hole the likes of which you cannot get out of without major ass kissing or backpedaling.

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