Page 31 of 31 FirstFirst ... 21293031
Results 301 to 308 of 308

Thread: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

  1. #301
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Any decent human being has sympathy for Meredith Kercher and her family. I do believe that goes without saying.
    Well, it must do, because it has certainly gone without saying anywhere here.

    Do you also regret the lack of evidence that links Amanda or Rafaelle to the murder, or the prosecutor's bizarre methods and history of prosecutorial misconduct?
    I do not regret it because the forensic evidence was pretty clear. Knox's DNA was found on the knife. Is that not a link?

    All high profile cases can be influenced by the media but it seems like the Italian system does not take pains to prevent this by sequestering juries or at least granting a change of venue.
    Change of venue is not an option under the Italian judicial system. I have no idea whether sequestering of juries is. I know it is in the US system, but so what. The sub judice regulations in the UK would instantly make the sequestering of juries unnecessary, but I note the US hasn't adopted that system. I suspect the Italians haven't adopted sequestration, but that's their system.

    What you are railing against is the idea that the trial is not being conducted under US judicial conditions. They may be more familiar and comforting, but are they necessarily more just?

    I've seen the "evidence" against Amanda and Rafaelle and it is totally lacking in probative value. If you wish to challenge this assertion with facts of your own, I welcome it.
    Well, I'm not claiming to have any legal qualifications or investigative abilities. But, then again, I'm guessing you are not qualified to adjudicate under Italian legal regulations.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  2. #302
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Well, it must do, because it has certainly gone without saying anywhere here.
    I have sympathy for Meredith and her family.

    I do not regret it because the forensic evidence was pretty clear. Knox's DNA was found on the knife. Is that not a link?
    Knox's DNA was found on a knife. I bet I could find your DNA on a knife, too. Does that mean you murdered someone with it?

    Change of venue is not an option under the Italian judicial system.
    Perhaps it should be.

    I have no idea whether sequestering of juries is.
    It's not.

    I know it is in the US system, but so what. The sub judice regulations in the UK would instantly make the sequestering of juries unnecessary, but I note the US hasn't adopted that system. I suspect the Italians haven't adopted sequestration, but that's their system.
    What's the sub judice regulations?

    What you are railing against is the idea that the trial is not being conducted under US judicial conditions. They may be more familiar and comforting, but are they necessarily more just?
    I said nothing of the sort. I'm railing against the complete lack of evidence and the misconduct of the lead prosecutor.

    Well, I'm not claiming to have any legal qualifications or investigative abilities. But, then again, I'm guessing you are not qualified to adjudicate under Italian legal regulations.
    I'm qualified to make conclusions based upon facts. The facts say that Amanda Knox is innocent. Like I said, if you wish to challenge this assertion, then present your case.

  3. #303
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    What's the sub judice regulations?
    It is the restriction upon discussion of a case currently subject to legal proceedings. Once a suspect has been charged with an offence it is seen as contempt of court for the details of that case to be discussed publicly for fear of prejudicing the outcome of those proceedings. No one is allowed to speculate on the possible guilt or innocence of a defendant nor on the weight or reliability of evidence within that case. If the case involves minors, nothing may be discussed that might identify the minor in question, whether as a defendant, victim or witness.

    This law is deemed unconstitutional in the US as it contradicts the first Amendment. It is however, to my knowledge, observed in the UK, India, Canada and several other jurisdictions.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  4. #304
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    It is the restriction upon discussion of a case currently subject to legal proceedings. Once a suspect has been charged with an offence it is seen as contempt of court for the details of that case to be discussed publicly for fear of prejudicing the outcome of those proceedings. No one is allowed to speculate on the possible guilt or innocence of a defendant nor on the weight or reliability of evidence within that case. If the case involves minors, nothing may be discussed that might identify the minor in question, whether as a defendant, victim or witness.

    This law is deemed unconstitutional in the US as it contradicts the first Amendment. It is however, to my knowledge, observed in the UK, India, Canada and several other jurisdictions.
    Okay, very interesting, but would you care to address my other points?

  5. #305
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    I have sympathy for Meredith and her family.
    I'm pleased to hear it.

    Knox's DNA was found on a knife. I bet I could find your DNA on a knife, too. Does that mean you murdered someone with it?
    It was judged to have been THE knife that killed Meredith.

    Perhaps it should be.
    Venue change is pretty obsolete in a world with 24/7 media coverage universally available. It's irrelevant in this case as neither the victim nor the accused came from Perugia and hence there was no local sensibilities to take into account.
    I said nothing of the sort. I'm railing against the complete lack of evidence and the misconduct of the lead prosecutor.
    Well, things such as secuestration and venue change are commonplace in the US and either rare or simply nothing to do with other jurisdictions. Chain of evidence and evidence handling may be quite different too. There's no universally accepted international set of juridical procedures.[/quote]
    I'm qualified to make conclusions based upon facts. The facts say that Amanda Knox is innocent. Like I said, if you wish to challenge this assertion, then present your case.
    The point is that unless you have access to all the same facts that the court had access to, you can't make such judgements. I very much doubt you sat through every moment of the case as it was presented to the jury. If you did, how did you manage it?

    I repeat, I accord myself neither legal qualifications nor was I there in court throughout the trial. Thankfully judging the guilt or innocence of this girl is not my responsibility. Nor is it yours. It is the responsibility of the Italian judicial system. Let's leave it to them to decide. I'm sure if you have fresh evidence or a different legal interpretation to offer, you can contact her defence team and make your contribution.
    Last edited by Andalublue; 03-13-10 at 06:37 AM.
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  6. #306
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I'm pleased to hear it.
    I'm pleased that you're pleased.

    It was judged to have been THE knife that killed Meredith.
    They judged incorrectly:

    DNA evidence in the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, Perugia, Italy

    The kitchen knife:

    The prosecution claims that DNA testing shows the presence of Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s DNA on the blade. The following information pertains to the knife:

    • The knife was selected from among several knives in the kitchen drawer of Raffaele’s apartment. It was the only knife collected from the kitchen, although it had no visible stains or notable characteristics.

    • Testimony has been given in court that this knife could not have made two of the three slash wounds to the victim’s neck, but that a smaller knife could have made all three wounds. Furthermore, this knife did not match a bloody knife imprint left on the bed.

    • An extremely sensitive chemical test for the presumptive presence of blood, tetramethyl benzidine (TMB, a chemical capable of detecting at least a 1:10,000 dilution of blood), was negative for both the handle and blade.

    • A swabbing of the handle revealed the presence of Amanda’s DNA. This is not unexpected since she had used the kitchen knives to prepare food at Raffaele’s apartment.

    • A swabbing of the center portion of the flat edge of the blade was taken for further analysis. This sample tested negative for blood with TMB.

    􀂃 An extremely low level, partial DNA profile was developed for the blade swabbing using the Identifiler kit. The alleles detected were consistent with the DNA of the victim. The highest peak in the electropherogram was approximately 100 relative fluorescence units (rfu), while 21 of the 29 peaks that were detected and labeled as alleles fell between 20 and 50 rfu.

    􀂃 This DNA does not originate from blood. A highly sensitive chemical test for blood was negative, and it is unlikely that all chemically detectable traces of blood could be removed while retaining sufficient cells to produce a DNA profile consistent with the victim.

    􀂃 Numerous samples were collected from the crime scene that were tested and shown to contain high quantities of the victim’s DNA. There exists the real possibility that the low level, partial profile attributed to the knife blade is a result of unintended transfer in the laboratory during sample handling. Numerous examples of this have been documented by other laboratories.

    􀂃 Electronic (.fsa) files that would allow independent analysis of the data have not been disclosed.

    􀂃 Neither the extraction nor amplification of the low template DNA from the kitchen knife blade was duplicated. The test can not be reproduced as the swab and DNA extract were consumed during testing.

    Conclusion about the kitchen knife:

    No credible scientific evidence has been presented to associate this kitchen knife with the murder of Meredith Kercher.

    Signed by:

    Elizabeth A. Johnson, Ph.D., Forensic Biology/DNA expert

    Greg Hampikian, Ph.D., Professor and Director of the Idaho Innocence Project, Department of Biology Boise State University

    Dan Krane, chief executive officer and chairman of the board of directors, Forensic Bioinformatics

    Jason Gilder, systems engineer, Forensic Bioinformatics

    Joy Halverson, DVM, director, Zoogen Services

    Laurence D. Mueller, professor of ecology and evolutionary biology, University of California, Irvine

    Marc Taylor, president, Technical Associates

    Rick Staub, Ph.D., director of laboratory operations, Orchid Cellmark, Dallas, Texas

    Simon Ford, Ph.D., Lexigen Science and Law Consultants


    http://www.friendsofamanda.org/files...d11.19.09b.pdf
    If you would be so kind as to read the entire report...

    Venue change is pretty obsolete in a world with 24/7 media coverage universally available. It's irrelevant in this case as neither the victim nor the accused came from Perugia and hence there was no local sensibilities to take into account.
    I'm not sure why you think this. The entire town of Perugia was awash in media sensationalism from the second Amanda Knox was arrested; the lead prosecutor made it a point to leak misinformation to the press. The jury pool was most certainly tainted.

    Well, things such as secuestration and venue change are commonplace in the US and either rare or simply nothing to do with other jurisdictions.
    I don't follow.

    Chain of evidence and evidence handling may be quite different too. There's no universally accepted international set of juridical procedures.
    But there are some things which are universally stupid, such as collecting a key piece of forensic evidence (Meredith's bra clasp) six weeks after the murder took place.

    The point is that unless you have access to all the same facts that the court had access to, you can't make such judgements. I very much doubt you sat through every moment of the case as it was presented to the jury. If you did, how did you manage it?
    I've studied the case in depth and I know the relevant facts and evidence.

    Motive: Amanda Knox, a female college student with no history of violence, mental illness, or criminal activity, convinced her boyfriend and a common criminal she barely knew to gang-rape and murder her roommate (totally implausible).

    Murder weapon: The alleged murder weapon does not match a bloody imprint left by the actual murder weapon at the crime scene, nor does the alleged murder weapon have any of Meredith Kercher's blood DNA on it; the DNA that was found on the alleged murder weapon was of the magnitude of trillionths of a gram, and was almost certainly the result of cross-contamination, which is not uncommon.

    Forensic evidence linking Amanda and Rafaelle to the crime scene: The key piece of forensic evidence linking Rafaelle to the crime scene was mishandled and collected six weeks after the crime took place.

    The lead prosecutor: Was under indictment for abuse of office during the murder trial and convicted just recently. Obtained his bizarre motive from an occultist blogger who claims to communicate with a dead priest, saying Meredith Kercher's murder was the culmination of a satantic sex ritual. He has posited similar theories in the past, none of which were true.

    If you want a more comprehensive analysis, watch the following:

    American Girl, Italian Nightmare - 48 Hours - CBS News

    Please find time to watch the whole thing.

    I repeat, I accord myself neither legal qualifications nor was I there in court throughout the trial. Thankfully judging the guilt or innocence of this girl is not my responsibility. Nor is it yours. It is the responsibility of the Italian judicial system. Let's leave it to them to decide. I'm sure if you have fresh evidence or a different legal interpretation to offer, you can contact her defence team and make your contribution.
    I have no obligation to remain silent. This trial was fraught with errors and ridden with sensationalism. Hopefully, the Italian justice system will redeem itself during the appeals process.

  7. #307
    Global Moderator
    Bodhidarma approves bigly
    Andalublue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Granada, España
    Last Seen
    11-29-17 @ 01:21 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    26,111

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    ...
    I don't currently have time to review everything you've post, for which I thank you, sincerely. I certainly will look at it all and pay close attention.

    I never suggested you should be quiet about your position. You have every right to express it, and given the extensive study you and Amanda's supporters have conducted, you have a responsibility to try to bring that info to light. I wish you luck.

    One question, why Friends of Amanda? Don't you maintain that the faults in the trial apply equally to Amanda and Raffaele?
    "The crisis will end when fear changes sides" - Pablo Iglesias Turrión

    "Austerity is used as a cover to reconfigure society and increase inequality and injustice." - Jeremy Corbyn

  8. #308
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Chicago
    Last Seen
    04-02-15 @ 06:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,211

    Re: Italian court convicts Amanda Knox of murder

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't currently have time to review everything you've post, for which I thank you, sincerely. I certainly will look at it all and pay close attention.

    I never suggested you should be quiet about your position. You have every right to express it, and given the extensive study you and Amanda's supporters have conducted, you have a responsibility to try to bring that info to light. I wish you luck.

    One question, why Friends of Amanda? Don't you maintain that the faults in the trial apply equally to Amanda and Raffaele?
    Thank you for your kind words, as to your question, I maintain that both Amanda and Raffaele are victims of the same flawed process; I believe the lack of forensic evidence against him is also addressed in the pdf file I linked.

    The reason why there is so much emphasis placed on Amanda is because, well, she's an American. I know that's not the ideal answer but that's just how it is sometimes. The Friends of Amanda group was started specifically by people from Amanda's home-state, so it's only natural that they would concentrate mostly on her innocence. However, they do not ignore Rafaelle, and address his innocence in some detail on their website. If you're interested, you can read a comprehensive analysis of the case here.

    Once again, I appreciate your candor and open-mindedness. This has been a very pleasant conversation... : D

Page 31 of 31 FirstFirst ... 21293031

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •