• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Jobs Summit: Real Progress or PR Stunt?

apdst said:
And, the taxes come from, where...? The people! Yes! Very good!

So, who creates wealth??
Click to expand...

Your game of semantics will not work. Is the government the representative of the people?

Secondly, you refused for some reason to answer my other question. Multiplier effect!
 
j-mac said:
The only multiplying effect I see out of the Obama administration is on unemployment rising as fast as ever, and the value of the dollar being destroyed by his policies.....Some say by design.


j-mac
Click to expand...

Why even bother to respond?
 
Goldenboy219 said:
Your game of semantics will not work. Is the government the representative of the people?

Secondly, you refused for some reason to answer my other question. Multiplier effect!
Click to expand...

You're missing the point. You're trying to say that the government can create wealth. It can't, since the government's money comes from the people. Therefore, only the private sector can create wealth.
 
apdst said:
You're missing the point. You're trying to say that the government can create wealth. It can't, since the government's money comes from the people. Therefore, only the private sector can create wealth.
Click to expand...

Why do you shy away from the multiplier effect?
 
Goldenboy219 said:
Of course i am. However, fiscal conservativeness should push toward a balanced budget during times of economic expansion. Since this is not, all you can really do is speculate about what Obama will do when we are in full recovery.
Click to expand...


Yes, I agree, and so far we have been, and what does that bring us? Being labeled by liberals as 'the Party of NO' and obstructionists.


I love hearing these statements! Tell me, who holds roughly 75% of the total debt? Hint: not China....
Click to expand...


Really?


MAJOR FOREIGN HOLDERS OF TREASURY SECURITIES
(in billions of dollars)
HOLDINGS 1/ AT END OF PERIOD


Sep Aug Jul Jun May Apr Mar Feb Jan Dec Nov Oct Sep
Country 2009 2009 2009 2009 2009 2009 2009 2009 2009 2008 2008 2008 2008
------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------

China, Mainland 798.9 797.1 800.5 776.4 801.5 763.5 767.9 744.2 739.6 727.4 713.2 684.1 618.2
Japan 751.5 731.2 724.5 711.8 677.2 685.9 686.7 661.9 634.8 626.0 625.2 629.6 617.5
United Kingdom 2/ 249.3 226.9 219.9 214.0 163.7 152.7 128.1 129.0 123.9 130.9 132.4 133.1 112.8
Oil Exporters 3/ 185.3 189.1 189.2 191.2 192.8 189.5 192.0 181.7 186.6 186.2 187.2 176.7 171.2
Carib Bnkng Ctrs 4/ 171.7 179.9 193.2 189.7 194.8 204.7 213.6 189.1 176.6 197.5 205.0 203.5 169.3
Brazil 144.9 137.3 138.1 139.8 127.1 126.0 126.6 130.8 133.5 127.0 136.1 141.0 148.3
Hong Kong 132.2 124.7 115.3 99.8 93.2 80.9 78.9 76.3 71.7 77.2 70.6 69.8 65.5
Russia 121.8 121.6 118.0 119.9 124.5 137.0 138.4 130.1 119.6 116.4 108.0 110.8 99.6
Luxembourg 98.7 94.2 92.0 104.1 96.2 97.4 106.0 92.1 87.0 97.3 94.2 100.6 104.5
Taiwan 78.1 75.9 77.4 77.0 75.7 78.3 74.8 72.6 73.3 71.8 70.2 65.9 63.0
Switzerland 68.9 68.2 68.1 71.5 63.7 64.2 67.7 68.2 62.1 62.3 63.8 62.0 49.7
Germany 53.7 55.0 56.1 53.8 55.1 54.4 54.9 56.5 56.2 56.0 53.8 53.6 51.5
Korea 38.8 38.7 37.6 36.3 37.4 35.4 33.1 33.3 31.3 31.3 32.7 36.2 40.2
Singapore 38.3 42.0 42.3 40.8 39.6 39.7 39.1 39.3 38.3 40.8 38.7 34.0 32.2
Canada 38.3 26.2 20.2 19.0 11.5 13.1 11.9 10.9 9.0 8.2 12.7 14.0 16.0
India 35.9 38.5 38.9 39.3 38.8 38.5 38.2 34.6 32.5 29.2 22.3 18.3 20.3
Ireland 32.7 36.5 38.6 46.3 50.6 49.7 54.7 54.4 50.0 54.3 41.3 35.1 32.9
France 32.1 35.0 24.6 26.0 25.9 30.6 27.1 16.8 17.9 16.8 18.4 20.5 19.3
Thailand 30.1 33.5 31.4 29.7 26.8 28.5 26.0 39.7 37.2 32.4 33.9 33.6 27.4
Turkey 28.2 28.7 27.3 27.5 28.8 27.2 30.2 32.4 31.3 30.8 29.0 27.9 31.5
Norway 25.2 24.7 28.9 28.7 28.3 27.5 26.2 21.1 21.9 23.1 20.2 11.5 13.2
Mexico 22.1 27.5 27.7 29.5 31.5 35.3 36.2 37.8 34.8 34.8 33.8 32.2 32.5
Netherlands 21.3 21.3 21.5 18.9 16.3 16.5 17.6 16.1 16.8 15.4 15.6 15.7 15.6
Egypt 20.8 20.4 18.6 17.3 18.6 18.5 18.5 19.1 16.9 17.2 16.8 16.7 15.5
Sweden 18.3 16.7 16.5 16.5 13.0 12.7 12.5 12.7 12.4 12.7 13.1 13.5 13.6
Israel 18.3 17.7 16.9 18.1 19.0 19.1 19.4 17.4 16.9 18.8 13.8 12.4 8.7
Italy 17.6 16.9 17.3 16.7 16.7 16.1 16.6 16.4 15.6 16.0 15.9 15.2 11.6
Colombia 16.7 16.3 14.8 11.8 11.9 11.4 11.2 11.4 11.3 11.1 11.5 11.3 9.9
Belgium 15.0 15.6 15.7 15.7 15.7 15.8 15.4 14.5 15.5 15.9 15.3 15.8 15.4
Chile 12.9 13.0 13.5 14.3 14.7 15.1 15.5 15.2 15.2 15.2 15.1 15.4 13.4
Philippines 11.8 12.4 11.4 11.6 11.8 12.0 12.4 12.6 11.6 11.7 11.5 12.1 12.0
Malaysia 11.0 11.2 11.9 11.7 12.3 11.6 10.6 8.4 8.0 8.4 8.8 8.6 9.4
All Other 156.8 158.7 159.5 157.5 157.6 153.4 156.5 164.8 162.3 156.4 156.1 149.0 137.7
Grand Total 3497.3 3452.9 3427.4 3382.1 3292.6 3262.0 3264.7 3161.4 3071.6 3076.3 3036.0 2979.7 2799.5

Of which:
For. Official 2369.5 2360.1 2346.2 2295.7 2287.5 2253.6 2248.6 2198.1 2165.8 2138.7 2104.1 2063.7 1981.0
Treasury Bills 597.7 607.3 606.6 571.9 586.2 530.6 542.7 521.2 486.9 457.9 427.2 360.6 276.8
T-Bonds & Notes 1771.8 1752.8 1739.6 1723.8 1701.3 1723.1 1705.9 1676.9 1678.9 1680.8 1676.9 1703.1 1704.2

Department of the Treasury/Federal Reserve Board
November 17, 2009


www.treas.gov/tic/mfh.txt
Click to expand...


Hmmmm....Looks like China holds the most...may not be 75% but still.


Funny you say that.... I see a **** ton of construction projects focused on infrastructure popping up all over the city i live. I expect it to increase dramitaclly during 2010.
Click to expand...


Evansville IN eh? Hmmmm....proving my point.


Really? Ever heard of Walsh Construction? You are only speculating, and cannot back up the comment with any bit of evidence.
Click to expand...


Well, see I have been a truck driver for some 20 years now, 15 of that was driving a tri axle dump in the construction trade, and the last 5 has been Tractor Trailer, flat bed, and now van OTR. most of it was in the construction trades, and not small industries either. During my Dump days we supplied LaFarge concrete, and Black top. Ever hear of those? I worked on projects with American Infrastructure, ever hear of them? They sound alot like Walsh....Here is a site American Infrastructure

Now before you look foolish, I will say that you shouldn't let your own speculation about me as a poster run away with you.


Your economies of scale comment has been noted. However, do you believe that this is not something that naturally occurs in the real world? Also, do big businesses depend on small businesses for their service orientated needs? Like when the alternator or starter of a 75 ton P&H goes haywire.
Click to expand...


In today's market the need to be self sufficient in every aspect saves money, if you don't think that is what the trend is then I seriously question your knowledge of this.


Your partisan rant is noted.
Click to expand...


By whom? you? So what!


j-mac
 
Goldenboy219 said:
Why do you shy away from the multiplier effect?
Click to expand...

Because the multiplier effect doesn't create wealth. Why is it so hard for people to see that government can't create wealth?

I'm just a dumbass ole country boy and I know that no one ever got rich working for the government and no one ever got rich collecting welfare.
 
apdst said:
Because the multiplier effect doesn't create wealth. Why is it so hard for people to see that government can't create wealth?

I'm just a dumbass ole country boy and I know that no one ever got rich working for the government and no one ever got rich collecting welfare.
Click to expand...

More importantly, who's the last poor person that hired you? So why do we want to put even more tax strain on the only people who can hire people and create wealth?
 
Erod said:
More importantly, who's the last poor person that hired you? So why do we want to put even more tax strain on the only people who can hire people and create wealth?
Click to expand...

It's because they want to create more poor people.
 
j-mac said:
But he can't...He is already starting to devolve into name calling....I think he needs a bit of 'oldschooling' :mrgreen:


j-mac
Click to expand...

J...did you see any of this jobs summit goings on? Obama in there doing a camera appearance, Chamber of Commerce nor any known Republican even there. What a community organization Obama gathered yesterday, the absolute brilliant minds of our time. Nobel Peace Prize economists, journalists, academia, and Google there to discuss job growth.:mrgreen:

A circus side show.
 
j-mac said:
Yes, I agree, and so far we have been, and what does that bring us? Being labeled by liberals as 'the Party of NO' and obstructionists.
Click to expand...

The fiscal conservatives in government hold very little say. When you go to war, a war in which you are not being actively invaded by a military presence, in which your economy is not at the brink of collapse, the fiscal conservative thing to do, the responsible thing to do, is raise taxes to pay for the war.

Really?
Click to expand...

Yep!
Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_category_0608.jpg

You managed to describe the entire orange ;)

Hmmmm....Looks like China holds the most...may not be 75% but still.
Click to expand...

Who holds the other 73%?:2razz:

Evansville IN eh? Hmmmm....proving my point.
Click to expand...

Hey, that is why i set up shop here.

Well, see I have been a truck driver for some 20 years now, 15 of that was driving a tri axle dump in the construction trade, and the last 5 has been Tractor Trailer, flat bed, and now van OTR. most of it was in the construction trades, and not small industries either. During my Dump days we supplied LaFarge concrete, and Black top. Ever hear of those? I worked on projects with American Infrastructure, ever hear of them? They sound alot like Walsh....Here is a site American Infrastructure

Now before you look foolish, I will say that you shouldn't let your own speculation about me as a poster run away with you.
Click to expand...

I am not saying you are not involved in the industry; however, i have very strong ties with Walsh construction, and the word is that their market cap will more than double in the next 3 years. Anecdotal i know, but they are a major construction firm in Chicago (Obama land).

In today's market the need to be self sufficient in every aspect saves money, if you don't think that is what the trend is then I seriously question your knowledge of this.
Click to expand...

I consider myself a small business owner. Guess what, when one of my electrical systems breaks down, i have it repaired by someone who specializes in that sort of thing. Of course, i could do it myself, but then i would be doing something that i am less efficient at, and forgoing something i am more efficient at.

Large companies also contract out to specialized firms. Why? Because in regards to major construction firms, they are more efficient in building, and less efficient in other aspects that make up their business. They hire plumbers too!

By whom? you? So what!


j-mac
Click to expand...

After the nth time, i fail to see the point.
 
apdst said:
Because the multiplier effect doesn't create wealth. Why is it so hard for people to see that government can't create wealth?
Click to expand...

Wrong! The initial step say $1 billion is spent by government into the economy. Steps two through infinity have nothing to do with government, as they are cycling through the economy via consumption. Depending on how much we consume via the domestic economy, $1 billion in government in spending creates more than $1 billion in wages/consumption. Say our marginal propensity to consume domestic goods is 50%. $1 billion in government spending on infrastructure (jobs) creates $2 billion in GDP growth.

Care to deny this?

I'm just a dumbass ole country boy and I know that no one ever got rich working for the government and no one ever got rich collecting welfare.
Click to expand...

Who does Halliburton work for? Oh yeah, the Iraqi people:lol:
 
Charles Martel said:
So you can defend your socialist policies.
Click to expand...

My socialist policy? :rofl

Military spending is socialist? I mean, it spawns from government spending.
 
apdst said:
You're missing the point. You're trying to say that the government can create wealth. It can't, since the government's money comes from the people. Therefore, only the private sector can create wealth.
Click to expand...
The government creates nothing of its own. It is purely a consumer of goods and services. It's real duty in a market economy is to legislate laws that promote commerce among private parties who create products and services that are traded for money.
 
Councilman said:
I would agree with you but there is nothing funny about what Obama is doing to destroy this country.

Here's another joke for you;
Recession is when your neighbor loses their job.
Depression is when you lose your Job.
Recovery is when Obama loses his job.

Obama excluded the the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the National Federation of Independent Business the two organizations who's members create the most jobs.

This makes this summit another lie to add to the long list. It's all for show. Obama is a great one for saying he'll do XYand Z the whole time he's saying F.U. to us and his for his idiot worshipers believe every lying word he says because they are all brain dead.
Click to expand...

I listened to some cuts of this thing. I couldnt help but get the sense that Barack Obama thinks a company's job is to simply hire people and not worry about having a profit at all. It was like he was chastizing small businesses for not hiring people and instead trying to keep their profits.

This guy and his goons are completely oblivious as to what the point of a company is. This is what happens when we elect people who have ZERO "0" business experience, who have done nothing but played around in the public sector their whole lives or taught in academia their whole life and think they know what is best for a business.
 
boston's big dig was sposed to cost 2.8b

instead, it came in at TWENTY TWO b's and took EIGHTEEN YEARS to complete

and then it killed a motorist

the new york times reported two saturdays ago that mere SERVICE on the debt, INTEREST ALONE, will approach ONE TRIL per by 2016 or 2017

probably more than 30 of our states are individually bankrupt

what's keynes say about that?
 
The Prof said:
LOL!

taxes come from the people---mere semantics
Click to expand...

It is semantics.

This would be the equivalant of me saying:

Business profits come from people, therefore businesses don't create wealth, people do.
 
empty verbiage

taxes come from taxpayers

sophistry is too high falutin a word for argumentation so mindless
 
The Prof said:
empty verbiage

taxes come from taxpayers

sophistry is too high falutin a word for argumentation so mindless
Click to expand...

I'm not argueing that taxes don't come from people, taxpayers, whatever. Your right, that would be stupid; I don't care. Its just dumb to say that the government cannot create wealth because it gets taxes from people. Its equivilantly dumb to say businesses can't create wealth because their profits come from people, customers, whatever you want to call them.

Good vocab though, I am impressed.
 
Last edited:
Obama didn't need a "job" summit....If he wants to stimulate the economy he should drop all of his job killing proposals.
 
Strucky said:
Obama didn't need a "job" summit....If he wants to stimulate the economy he should drop all of his job killing proposals.
Click to expand...

The best thing Obama could do for the country and the world would be to reverse every action he has taken since he took office. You sure nailed this one!:applaud
 
Goldenboy219 said:
IMHO, government spending during times of economic expansion should be kept within a balanced budget. However, this is not a time of government expansion.
Click to expand...

Correction, government spending during times of economic expansion should be kept below a balanced budget, thereby allowing the expansion (or creation) of surpluses to pay down obligations and accumulate rainy day funds. Good government plans for unforeseeable disasters. Bad government doesn't.

Quick question: if government can build a bridge, and in order to build a bridge you have to hire laborers, constructions firms, and buy resources; does this not create wealth?
Click to expand...

And the next obvious question is couldn't have such wealth been used more efficiently?

Which then begs the next obvious question: would that wealth have been used at all? Inherently the problem with any opportunity cost counterargument. Given how people got the hell out of the stock market, I'm saying no.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom