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Thread: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    It's entirely likely that the events of 9/11 wouldn't have lapped up to our shores if we hadn't meddled so much in the middle east.
    I don't think "meddle" is the right word.
    We live in the 19th century and the Islamics seem to want to live in the 6th century.
    A clash of philosophies was inevitable.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    Which preemptive actions could have prevented 9/11? If anything stronger intelligence domestically could have prevented it.
    As with Japan/WW 2, the data(intelligence) was there.
    What we lacked was the intelligence to see this.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    I don't think "meddle" is the right word.
    We live in the 19th century and the Islamics seem to want to live in the 6th century.
    A clash of philosophies was inevitable.
    That clash of civilizations theory is complete bull****.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    An interesting report which actually points out some really contradictory statements that don't necessarily agree with the headline conclusion.

    Notice that the peaks in "America First" occur in 1976 and 1993 - both times of economic stress in the US shortly after a major foreign military effort by the US. So this type of response should actually be an expected one. (Page 16) And yet further into the report you see that the majority of people are pro-active against international threats, feel that the US should take matters into its own hands regardless of allies or UN opinions, and concentrate on protecting US jobs and security.

    The biggest thing in the report that leaps out at me is how often the public's responses are at odds with the Council of Foreign Relation's (CFR) who put the report together. Whenever the sponsoring group is at odds with the findings you will get some really strange results and interpretations. This is a natural off-shoot of any statistical analysis applied to human interactions. When you are trying to interpret data that you just can't understand, you have a hard time making any sense of it.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    That clash of civilizations theory is complete bull****.
    Not when one of the core values of Islam is World 'Unity' under the banner of Islam...

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    In my view, we have no business in regime change of any country unless we are attacked by a country. What we have been doing in the ME is trying to spread our form of democracy, and in my estimation, it will only have a semblance of success while we are still there. Culturally, many people in that region of the world probably aren't capable of managing it without our presence.
    That being said, I have no problem with special ops and intelligence being used to take out legitimate terrorist targets, but I object to nation-building and trying to spread our idea of what government should be. I don't think anyone who isn't capable and willing to fight for their own democracy is ready for it.
    I disagree with a few of your points.

    First, it is our business to do regime change. Not everywhere. Not all at once. In my view, it is justified when a government subjugates its people. We should only do it when it is in our interests.

    Second, I don't think we are spreading our form of democracy. We are spreading democracy and they are determining what that looks like. The Iraqi form of democracy looks nothing like ours.

    Third, we should only do regime change when the people have the cultural capacity for it.

    Fourth, democracy is universal and with enough literacy, anyone can have a democracy.

    Finally, they do fight for a democracy, once we have gone in and removed the boot of the dictatorship that was subjugating them. It is not easy what they are building in Iraq.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Not when one of the core values of Islam is World 'Unity' under the banner of Islam...
    I don't get what you are trying to say here.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Enemy View Post
    I don't get what you are trying to say here.
    Clashing with Islam is inevitable because, like many religions, they seek to bring everyone into their fold, worldwide. Some of them prefer to do it violently.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post

    In my view, it is justified when a government subjugates its people. We should only do it when it is in our interests.
    Why should we do it when a foreign government subjugates its people? What particular aspects of doing so do you believe would make it in our interests?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    We are spreading democracy and they are determining what that looks like. The Iraqi form of democracy looks nothing like ours.
    Why should we spread democracy?

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Third, we should only do regime change when the people have the cultural capacity for it.
    And it is my belief that the people should do their own regime change when they have the cultural capacity for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Fourth, democracy is universal and with enough literacy, anyone can have a democracy.
    Not if they are unwilling/unable to obtain it for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by reefedjib View Post
    Finally, they do fight for a democracy, once we have gone in and removed the boot of the dictatorship that was subjugating them.
    See my response to your third point.

    To understand my point of view on war and international intervention probably requires that I clarify my personal views on the individual. I believe every person is responsible for his/her own happiness or misery (with the exception of children, but once they are on their own, the same idea applies). I don't believe I can save anyone, nor do I have the desire to. I don't believe America can be the saviors and heroes of the world. I believe that when individuals or groups reach a point that change is deeply desired or necessary, then change happens.
    Last edited by lizzie; 12-04-09 at 10:40 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Clashing with Islam is inevitable because, like many religions, they seek to bring everyone into their fold, worldwide. Some of them prefer to do it violently.
    You suggest that the muslim nation states act in the best interest of their majority religion, and not their own selfishness?

    You are contradicting even the most radical Islamists in analysis of role religion plays in Middle-Eastern politics.
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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