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Thread: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

  1. #51
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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicDude86 View Post
    Africa is Europe's problem. How come they get to go create a mess of almost an entire continent, and get to leave and act like nothing happened?
    Because going back might actually require Europe to take responsibility and acknowledge what they have done.
    Not even just Africa. Most of the world Europe has played around with
    Last edited by Laila; 12-04-09 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    The best defense is a good offense, Lizzie.
    We should have the best offensive capabilities money can buy, but those capabilities should only be used for war, not peace-keeping, not nation-building, and not chasing criminal gangs in the desert, many of whom have the support of the very people we think we are helping.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    The problem isn't that one's suggesting that "blowback" contributed to the terrorist attack. That is not an unreasonable suggestion. Policies can provoke favorable and unfavorable reactions. Of course, foreign policy of any state must consider tradeoffs. Foreign policy is not, and cannot be risk-free, as the world is not risk-free.

    The problem lies with the argument that "blowback" was solely or almost completely responsible for the outcome. The latter argument--Ron Paul's, the argument from the isolationist perspective, etc.--is naive and inaccurate. It ignores Al Qaeda's nature as a revolutionary movement, its ideology and its objectives. Yet, Al Qaeda's nature, ideology and objectives run well beyond avenging that terrorist organization's expressed grievances (actual or perceptual) concerning U.S. policy. Indeed, if that were not the case, then Osama Bin Laden would never have included rationalizations that ran far afield of U.S. foreign policy in his "Letter to America," much less demanded that the U.S. ultimately convert to Islam (his radical interpretation, of course).
    I don't think you're going back far enough. We were messing around in Afghanistan before Al Qaeda or the Taliban ever existed. Just like in Iraq, we gave arms and funds to some of the same people who ended up attacking us later.
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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    We should have the best offensive capabilities money can buy, but those capabilities should only be used for war, not peace-keeping, not nation-building, and not chasing criminal gangs in the desert, many of whom have the support of the very people we think we are helping.
    Those capabilities were used to rebuild Europe, stand in the Soviets way, and very much active in a peace keeping roll. Our United States Navy steams up and down the globe in peace-keeping endeavors(reflagging of Kuwaiti oil tankers a prime example).

    And you're confused. Al-Qaeda nor the Taliban are criminal gangs. The Khobar towers, USS Cole, and 9-11 were acts of war. Furthermore, the War Powers Act is engaged in both theatres.

    Finally, your 'chasing' defintion above...means that someone is running. And it's a tad difficult to plan your next attack on American soil or against American interests when yer runnin for your life. Remember that when discussing offense and defense.
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post
    And you're confused. Al-Qaeda nor the Taliban are criminal gangs. The Khobar towers, USS Cole, and 9-11 were acts of war. Furthermore, the War Powers Act is engaged in both theatres.
    I disagree. The Taliban may have been considered a government, but the Taliban didn't attack us. Al Qaeda is a multinational criminal organization more similar to the mafia than to a government entity. 9/11 was not an act of war, it was terrorism. If the Yakuza or some Columbian drug cartel had hijacked those planes would we be trying to topple the local government? Maybe, if they weren't willing to cooperate. At that point it became a war against the Afghan government who refused to allow us in. But if the Taliban had said "sure, we'll help you get rid of Al Qaeda" there would have been no war necessary to deal with the terrorist group. And there are many such groups in various nations around the world, including ours. Al Capone could have hijacked a plane as easily as Al Qaeda if he really wanted to.
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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by nerv14 View Post
    Very interesting. I agree in that America starts alot of problems, but I think it is kind of greedy of Americans to be willing to sacrifice the greater good of the world to just avoid the problems out there.

    America should possible interfere less in the world overall but America certainly shouldn't just "mind its own business." If anything, the problem is that we only interfere in the world to get gains for our own, when we should be concerned with interfering, if it will help the world as a whole.
    Total horse****, Americans may get involved in a lot of problems, but we don't start any more problems than anyone else.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Total horse****, Americans may get involved in a lot of problems, but we don't start any more problems than anyone else.
    lol since we intervene more, we just have statistically a higher chance of causing more problems then other people

    this is true even if we do fix more problems then other nations

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Laila View Post
    Because going back might actually require Europe to take responsibility and acknowledge what they have done.
    Not even just Africa. Most of the world Europe has played around with
    We turned out alright.


    We can't hold them responsible for **** that they can't fix and is long gone, however Africa is their issue and they should do more than we are doing. We don't even belong there.

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Martel View Post

    And you're confused. Al-Qaeda nor the Taliban are criminal gangs. The Khobar towers, USS Cole, and 9-11 were acts of war. Furthermore, the War Powers Act is engaged in both theatres.
    Criminal according to whose law?
    "I do not underestimate the ability of fanatical groups of terrorists to kill and destroy, but they do not threaten the life of the nation. Whether we would survive Hitler hung in the balance, but there is no doubt that we shall survive al-Qa'ida." -- Lord Hoffmann

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    Re: Poll: Isolationism soars among Americans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    I disagree. The Taliban may have been considered a government, but the Taliban didn't attack us.
    No, they didn't. When we asked if they'd turn Bin Laden over to us for obvious reasons, they refused. We have a War Powers Act engaged with specific language, the President can make war on anyone harboring terrorists as well and....well...there you have it.

    Al Qaeda is a multinational criminal organization more similar to the mafia than to a government entity.
    The Mafia are here. Many American citizens. Not attacking United States warships or embassies, not flying planes into the Pentagon, not capturing and torturing US soldiers, your analogy is unsound, imo.

    9/11 was not an act of war, it was terrorism.
    The United States Congress considered it an act of war, have you read the Authorization? Got stuff like "Whereas, such acts continue to pose an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States;", and "the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons" and stuff like that you wouldn't see used against a mafia.

    If the Yakuza or some Columbian drug cartel had hijacked those planes would we be trying to topple the local government?
    Yes. If these two organizations that haven't declared war on the US as al-Qaeda has hijacked planes and we asked the Colombian government to turn over these perps and they refused? That's a War Powers Act by Congress waiting to happen. Should this Yakuza or drug cartel also have been trying to start a war for years, had previously attacked a US Warship, had previously killed embassy personnel...we would be remiss NOT to declare open hostilities, we'd be foolish to NOT wake up and consider these acts of war.

    But if the Taliban had said "sure, we'll help you get rid of Al Qaeda" there would have been no war necessary to deal with the terrorist group.
    Correct, there would be no war necessary. But they didn't so...war necesssary...right?

    Al Capone could have hijacked a plane as easily as Al Qaeda if he really wanted to.
    Al Capone was a US citizen! I don't see your analogy at all here. You'd support sending the troops in after an al-Qaeda harbored by the Taliban correct? That is saying you favor the US military being used to chase criminals. Repsonsible for collecting data or evidence on the battlefield as well? Must we read them rights if they're merely criminals, are they presumed innocent?

    Madness!
    It was the Austrasians, that hewed on bravely through the thick of the fight, it was they who found and cut down the Saracen King.

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