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Govt will need to help shape U.S. media: Waxman

Trying to discuss anything with you is folly.

Amusingly, we say that about you. What you dislike is your inability to prove me wrong. Notice that virtually everything you have stated in this thread is a variation of "I say so." You have currently as to date, brought nothing of evidence, reason, or rational. In fact, you explicitly stated that you FEEL that Waxman as ulterior motives. You have no evidence, no argument and no rational to follow. Just speculation. And when I challenge your positions, you abandon them. I'm still waiting for you to prove my positions are in line with Waxman. You won't because you can't.

You hinge your arguments on trivialities

I wasn't aware that actual stated policies were trivialities and that mere speculation based on FEELINGS aren't.

you insult the intelligence of anyone that doesn't agree with you

Like how I'm insulting Ethereal over contract aspects of marriage and misterman about why people legally pay for music when they can get it free? Oh wait. :rofl I do enjoy people making those claims despite current threads proving them so utterly wrong.

and you make false claims that because someone disagrees, they didn't "Read the article"

False? Tell me, where in the article does it say nationalization? Tell me, how does changing amortization tables equate to your conclusion? Declaring my statement false....and then utterly failing to address why I leveled that claim does not disprove my claim.

Still lacking the guts and intelligence to answer that eh?
 
Amusingly, we say that about you.

I don't need a group of people to echo my opinion for me to feel good about myself, I am quite able to think on my own.

You however... need group approval.
 
I don't need a group of people to echo my opinion for me to feel good about myself, I am quite able to think on my own.

You however... need group approval.

Yeah....that explains why I went against a much larger group who disagreed with me.

Notice that not a single point has yet to be refuted. Why is that? Because I'm right and you folks got nothing.

You know, ignoring the vast majority of my post doesn't make you right. It makes you weak as you can't address it.

Still pretending I insult everyone who disagrees with me eh? You just posted in the thread with misterman!

I have a hard time taking you seriously when you don't even understand the fundamental business problem why newspapers are failing.
 
Yeah....that explains why I went against a much larger group who disagreed with me.

The majority disagree with you, yet you are right?
Notice that not a single point has yet to be refuted. Why is that? Because I'm right and you folks got nothing.
I've attempted too, you refuse to even admit I have read the article. What you are looking for is me to roll over and agree with you. I would agree if you had anything worth agreeing with posted.

You know, ignoring the vast majority of my post doesn't make you right. It makes you weak as you can't address it.
When you have the courtesy to quit isnulting me by claiming that I haven't read the article just because we disagree, maybe I'll show you the same and take the time to address your... ehm "points".
Still pretending I insult everyone who disagrees with me eh? You just posted in the thread with misterman!
what does that have to do with anything?

I have a hard time taking you seriously when you don't even understand the fundamental business problem why newspapers are failing.

They are FAILING because they cannot make a profit. Why is that?

Circulation is down, why is that? Because people are moving from paper to digital delivery. This means they have to adapt, those that do, will succeed, those that don't will fail.

Government is not the answer, government has no place in shaping this. The markets will. That's how business works. A point you have ignored from the word go.
 
The majority disagree with you, yet you are right?

The majority thought that bloodletting was a viable cure for many diseases. What's your point? Do you really expect the fallacy of the bandwagon to win an argument?

I've attempted too

Liar. Show me a single post where you attempted to actually address what I actually stated.

you refuse to even admit I have read the article. What you are looking for is me to roll over and agree with you. I would agree if you had anything worth agreeing with posted.

Because you discussed things that were never in the article and you ran away from points that were pointed out to actually be in the article. Have you read it now? I don't know. I know for a fact you didn't before. If you did, you would have been able to disprove my arguments. Notice you have not. Not a single post addressing those claims. Absolutely nothing on your part.

When you have the courtesy to quit isnulting me by claiming that I haven't read the article just because we disagree

CAN YOU EVEN READ?

I claim you did not read the article because you talk about things as fact that were never stated. Furthermore you go off your explicitly stated FEELINGS as if they were facts while ignoring ACTUAL STATED POLICIES IN YOUR OWN ARTICLE.

maybe I'll show you the same and take the time to address your... ehm "points".

ehm points? What does that mean?

what does that have to do with anything?

1) You abandon points when challenged to support them
2) You say all kinds of **** to avoid defending your claims
3) You are wrong as usual

They are FAILING because they cannot make a profit. Why is that?

Circulation is down, why is that? Because people are moving from paper to digital delivery. This means they have to adapt, those that do, will succeed, those that don't will fail.

Which really has little to do with their actual product: content. It has everything to do with their distribution. You claimed that the CONTENT was the problem initially. Perhaps you have learned something here. The issue is distribution.

Government is not the answer, government has no place in shaping this.

Still pretending every post I made doesn't exist eh?

The markets will. That's how business works. A point you have ignored from the word go.

Please show me how I have ignored this...which is your cue to run away and never ever defend that point.
 
Now you call me a liar. After this, I'm done. I don't need to take verbal abuse from a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because I disagree with them. You are a very rude, obnoxious and arrogant poster. I am not, btw done because I cannot refute your points, I am washing my hands of you because you are NOT WORTH MY TIME. You are... insignificant.

I'll post this nifty graph to make my point. The WSJ is thriving, why is that?

circ2.jpg
 
Now you call me a liar. After this, I'm done. I don't need to take verbal abuse from a petulant child throwing a temper tantrum because I disagree with them.

You claimed to have attempted to address my points.

Except there is not a single post here by you doing that. You are indeed lying.

You are a very rude, obnoxious and arrogant poster. I am not, btw done because I cannot refute your points, I am washing my hands of you because you are NOT WORTH MY TIME. You are... insignificant.

Run away. Run away. And yes, you cannot refute my points. You have never been able to do so in the past and you will never be able to do so in the future.

I'll post this nifty graph to make my point. The WSJ is thriving, why is that?

Oh Boy. For someone who claims he read the article, you really outta to have rethought that.

"The WSJ began including paid online subscribers in their circulation since 2003."

You made a rookie, freshmen error. The WSJ includes data that others do not. Therefore it is expected that their numbers will be higher as their set of data included factors that the others either do not have or do not include.

If sample A counts instances of B and C as the same, but sample Z and X do not, which will have higher reported numbers of B? :rofl

HELLO. Simple math to Mr. V, are you there?
 
Let's do some recalculations:

Lee Rozen, who heads production of the P-I's Web site, said an all-time high of 1.7 million unique visitors visited the site in October, yielding a record 28.3 million pages viewed. For the six months ended Sept. 30, page views went up 13 percent, compared with the same period the year before

Times spokeswoman Jill Mackie declined to disclose figures for her newspaper's Web site alone. She said that for the P-I's Web site, the Times' Web site, plus umbrella sites NWSource.com and Northwest Classifieds, the average number of page views monthly during the nine months ended Sept. 30 was 66.2 million, up 19 percent from the comparable period the year before.

Internet takes a bite out of P-I, Times circulation

If we counted those as paid subscribers, that jacks up a relatively small newspaper well above the majors.
 
A powerful Democratic lawmaker has stated his willingness to intervene on the behalf of the federal government in the nation's news sector. Insisting that the newspaper business is vital to democracy, Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., suggested that the government "resolve" the problems in the industry, potentially though misguided federal bailouts.

At a workshop on the future of journalism at the Federal Trade Commission, Waxman, who chairs the House Energy and Commerce Committee, suggested the federal government secure "public funding for quality journalism as a means to preserve a critical mass of resources and assets devoted to public media."

Though Waxman raised other options, he devoted more of his address to public funding for newspapers than any other avenue for preserving the medium. Newspaper bailouts could, he stated, "preserve and maintain key functions of modern journalism ... by cushioning the economic squeeze publishers are facing."

Free Press was co-founded by avowed socialist Robert McChesney, who has been a long-time advocate of direct government subsidies for newspapers, and has praised the media ownership model advanced by Venezuela's Marxist dictator Hugo Chavez, who has notoriously cracked down on media opposition in the South American nation.

This humble blogger has written of the dangers of federal funding for newspapers, as have NewsBusters writers Tom Blumer, Tim Graham, and Jeff Poor. Seton Motley has written on the topic and appeared on Fox News to discuss the dangers of such a policy.

A Business and Media Institute report by Dan Gainor and Catherine Maggio found that government involvement would lead to at least some degree of government control, that public news outlets are generally politically biased due to political funding, and suggested that the media industry resist the temptation of government money.

The reports findings echo what scores of media commentators, including those at NB, have found: the government cannot fund the news without at least inadvertently affecting the content of the news. Bailouts for financial and automotive firms undertaken during the last year have demonstrated this fact--the federal government can now dictate the products and services they offer, arbitrarily impose union and ownership contracts, and limit compensation for their employees to quell populist anger.

Recent studies of the real-world consequences of government funding for newspapers have demonstrated these facts. A Harvard University study on the newspaper industry in Argentina, which has benefited from significant federal funding,
found a “huge correlation” between, in any given month, how much money went to a newspaper and how much corruption coverage appeared on its front page...
n periods where newspapers were getting more money from the government, they produced fewer corruption scoops of their own and covered fewer of the scoops produced by other newspapers.

Even if editors do not make conscious decision to avoid coverage damaging to their federal financiers, the knowledge that such funding can be withdrawn on a whim is enough to chill free speech. Government money will mean a say--directly or indirectly--in what newspapers cover, how, and how much.

Free Press has been quite open about this element of government funding; the organization wishes to see the federal government impose rules on the media to promote "underrepresented groups," according to its report Towards a National Journalism Strategy. Such a policy, the report states, would "greatly increase minority and female ownership of news media outlets, which currently stand at an appallingly low number."

Free Press wants the government to have a say in the composition of the news business so it can promote the roles of politically favorable groups. Not exactly what most people would have in mind when describing a free press.

Waxman did touch on a number of other options--an alternative tax status for newspapers, a reworking of antitrust laws, and additional philanthropic support for newspapers. All of these could contribute to the viability of a free press without compromising its objectivity by placing it on the government dole. All of these options should be exhausted before Waxman or other federal officials consider propping up the industry with taxpayer dollars.


Waxman Wants Federal Government to 'Resolve' Newspapers' Problems | NewsBusters.org

More on what Waxman is REALLY after, not the trivial nonsense OC has been spewing is going on.
 
For the record OC, I'd been holding on to those links for a bit, letting play the rope out nice and long. While you're sitting there trying to defend Waxman's ideas as being something they are not, I had all ready gone out and found the "rest of the story". The rest of the story being I was correct all along. This isn't about "Anti-trust issues" or any other non-sense you've been on about. It's about Government largess being given to news outlets that deemed "too important to fail".

Effectively Government Run Media. This isn't my opinion, this isn't even a RIGHT WING opinion, as shown by the first link I provided. You, are very much wrong. And I have debunked your entire argument. I was right from the moment I posted this thread.

I don't need you to acknowledge this, it'd be nice, but I don't need it.
 
More on what Waxman is REALLY after, not the trivial nonsense OC has been spewing is going on.

Oh yay! Let's trust a partisan news outlet that's not even trying to hide its partisanism to tell us just how much time he spent on various items.

How about you get his actual speech?

Imagine that. Reading the text of his actual speech.

Let's look at how another site viewed it:

Epoch Times - Newspapers Should Get Government Support, Says Waxman

For the record OC, I'd been holding on to those links for a bit, letting play the rope out nice and long. While you're sitting there trying to defend Waxman's ideas as being something they are not, I had all ready gone out and found the "rest of the story". The rest of the story being I was correct all along. This isn't about "Anti-trust issues" or any other non-sense you've been on about. It's about Government largess being given to news outlets that deemed "too important to fail".

Really? Then why did you post a link that in no way supported your position?

Do you have a copy of his actual speech? Or just overly partisan secondary sources?

Effectively Government Run Media. This isn't my opinion, this isn't even a RIGHT WING opinion, as shown by the first link I provided. You, are very much wrong. And I have debunked your entire argument. I was right from the moment I posted this thread.

Perhaps you should visit the home page of that link you provided. If that's not overtly partisan, nothing is.

I don't need you to acknowledge this, it'd be nice, but I don't need it.

LOL. You're funny. Do you really think that posting overly partisan sources that dictate to us how much time he actually spent on each proposal is going to work? People try it on you, did it work then? lol
 
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Oh boy. Seriously?

Here's his speech:

Chairman Waxman?s Remarks to the Federal Trade Commission News Media Workshop

How long was this speech? 15 minutes?

Good luck proving your points with that pathetic excuse for a speech.

Though Waxman raised other options, he devoted more of his address to public funding for newspapers than any other avenue for preserving the medium. Newspaper bailouts could, he stated, "preserve and maintain key functions of modern journalism ... by cushioning the economic squeeze publishers are facing."

Wow. Talk about dishonesty by omission. He also spent far more time on history (roughly half), what journalism we should save and that the whole things has a mountain of questions that need to be addressed before anything occurs.
 
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A hyper partisan like you will never admit... probably because you agree with, the goals Mr. Waxman seeks, government subsidizing "media outlets".

That's what his speech says, that's what his goals are, that's what this is about. Saving failing news organizations that cannot compete in fair free markets because their product is no longer, relevant.
 
Moderator's Warning:
Cease the personal attacks, please.
 
A hyper partisan like you will never admit... probably because you agree with, the goals Mr. Waxman seeks, government subsidizing "media outlets".

That's what his speech says, that's what his goals are, that's what this is about. Saving failing news organizations that cannot compete in fair free markets because their product is no longer, relevant.
Anyone who agrees with Waxman on anything is a socialist.
 
Waxman Wants Federal Government to 'Resolve' Newspapers' Problems | NewsBusters.org

More on what Waxman is REALLY after, not the trivial nonsense OC has been spewing is going on.


Great! An editorial written in the middle of reporting a news item to look as if they are being nonbiased and not just reporting specific issues that they want to refute.

But let's use it for a minute:

Newsbusters said:
Even if editors do not make conscious decision to avoid coverage damaging to their federal financiers, the knowledge that such funding can be withdrawn on a whim is enough to chill free speech. Government money will mean a say--directly or indirectly--in what newspapers cover, how, and how much.

Take out the word federal and Government for a minute and what does it say about "free speech." (and wrong grammar, by the way--gosh, bloggers are sloppy on quality writing)

Now read this statement: Money will mean a say--directly or indirectly--in what newspapers or various medias cover, along with how, and how much. Definitely true in almost all areas of media.
 
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Which is a problem that results in a crappy media. Something that Zyphlin eluded to. When profit is the major drive to media, they pander to specific biases to increase revenue resulting in exceedingly unreliable, one sided and otherwise not useful for democratic process.

Furthermore, everyone here except me seems to ignore how the current tax law is something the media requires for growth. Not to mention the legalistic copyright structure. Would there be media without that? Not in the form we have. Like it or not, the media has always been dependent. But the partisans here pretend it's not because a democrat said something.


Oh it's not. There is a place for liberal op-ed just like there should be a place for conservative commentary. But let us not also pretend that democrats have some golden key to responsible journalism. Shall we bring up how it was that an American paper could have had a strong case made against it for releasing vital information during a time of war, placing our own men and women at risk? I don't think you want to go there.


Uh no. Newspapers as an entire industry is responsible for its demise because they failed to change with the times. You are ignoring how newspapers across the country pandering to every political bias are having problems. The only ones that aren't are largely the niche business ones that professionals are willing to pay for. This is why you are a partisan. Rather then address the actual underlying objective business model reality, you pander to anti-liberal notions. Newspapers fail because people get their news from varying sources. Reliance upon one is going the way of the dinosaurs. No one pays for the WSJ for its political opinions. They pay for the business aspects. No one pays for the financial times for its political opinions. They pay for the business insight. No one pays for Investors Business Daily for its political opinions. They pay for the business aspects. The Chicago Tribune has endorsed Republicans for decades. Guess who's on the not going to make it short list?


WashTimes is on pretty solid footing as far as I know. In any case allow me to tell you why it is that I speak with just a little bit of authority on the issue. While I may be a truck driver, I have been lucky enough to be married to a wonderful woman for the past 22 years, whom has worked for news papers owned by TimesMirror, and Tribune. The Tribune has had problems because it sold to a man that had NO News Paper experience and put in place another man that had NO experience. It has NOTHING to do with my political leaning, other than to say I am against OP ED JOURNALISM.


Then tell me why Republican and Conservative leaning papers are on the short list of going extinct as well?


I don't think that is any more true than anything else thrown out there with not a single shred of evidence to back it up.


Hint: It has nothing to do with bias. It has everything to do with competition of where one gets their media. Why pay for a newspaper when I can get the same news free online? Doesn't matter if you're a Cheney backer or Pelsoi supporter, free is still free.


Now that much is true. People are getting more from the net, however, Papers are correcting their mistake to give away content for free, and hopefully they will survive. I don't think it is a matter of Government bailing them out though, I think it should be a matter of getting back to basics.


Left leaning because they disagree with you? Or left leaning on some actual objective criteria? I agree that fully publicly funded is a bad idea because it allows politicians to monkey around with content, but that is hardly the same as allowing 501(c)(3) or changing amortization tables.


No, left leaning because they are left leaning. Period. They already distort, we don't need them beholden to Obama to get more favorable coverage do we?


Has that happened with industries we extended additional tax benefits to in the past?

Or are you as usual talking out of your butt?


No, I am trying to be civil here, you should try it. Take GM for example and you tell me who runs the show now?

Hint: It ain't a free market guy.


The whole reason you are angry is because a Democrat said it. When Republicans engage in tax law changes, you say nothing because they are Republicans.


that is because when conservatives change the tax law it is usually downward, letting me keep more of my hard earned money. When Liberals change them it is to take more of my money and give it away to non deserving leaches.


j-mac
 
Oh it's not. There is a place for liberal op-ed just like there should be a place for conservative commentary. But let us not also pretend that democrats have some golden key to responsible journalism. Shall we bring up how it was that an American paper could have had a strong case made against it for releasing vital information during a time of war, placing our own men and women at risk? I don't think you want to go there.





WashTimes is on pretty solid footing as far as I know. In any case allow me to tell you why it is that I speak with just a little bit of authority on the issue. While I may be a truck driver, I have been lucky enough to be married to a wonderful woman for the past 22 years, whom has worked for news papers owned by TimesMirror, and Tribune. The Tribune has had problems because it sold to a man that had NO News Paper experience and put in place another man that had NO experience. It has NOTHING to do with my political leaning, other than to say I am against OP ED JOURNALISM.





I don't think that is any more true than anything else thrown out there with not a single shred of evidence to back it up.





Now that much is true. People are getting more from the net, however, Papers are correcting their mistake to give away content for free, and hopefully they will survive. I don't think it is a matter of Government bailing them out though, I think it should be a matter of getting back to basics.





No, left leaning because they are left leaning. Period. They already distort, we don't need them beholden to Obama to get more favorable coverage do we?





No, I am trying to be civil here, you should try it. Take GM for example and you tell me who runs the show now?

Hint: It ain't a free market guy.





that is because when conservatives change the tax law it is usually downward, letting me keep more of my hard earned money. When Liberals change them it is to take more of my money and give it away to non deserving leaches.


j-mac
I think this country is slowly getting sick and tired of liberalism.
 
I think this country is slowly getting sick and tired of liberalism.

Modern Liberalism. I think a return to Classical Liberalism would make everyone a lot happier. Well, except modern liberals.
 
A hyper partisan like you will never admit... probably because you agree with, the goals Mr. Waxman seeks, government subsidizing "media outlets".

That's what his speech says, that's what his goals are, that's what this is about. Saving failing news organizations that cannot compete in fair free markets because their product is no longer, relevant.

Note the failures in this argument.

1) No addressing how the actual speech lines up with the accusations made by Mr. V
2) No addressing how the partisan article provided by Mr. V is exceptionally dishonest in characterizing what the speech was actually about
3) No addressinghow the number of options actually stated in his speech are no different then business as usual
4) No acknowledgment that similar actions for money losing farms was enacted under Bush
5) No evidence for his claim that my arguments are inline with Waxman's beliefs
6) No evidence that Waxman seeks subsidizing media as government outlets

I can keep going. Mr. V has presented absolutely nothing other his how his "feelings" are true.

And no, his speech does not state such goals and does not state that the product being sold is unwanted.

Again, more evidence for my initial claim that someone did not read the article.
 
Great! An editorial written in the middle of reporting a news item to look as if they are being nonbiased and not just reporting specific issues that they want to refute.

Which amusingly placed next to the actual speech shows that the editorial is exceptionally dishonest. When we look at the actual text of the actual speech it in no way lines up with the accusations pushed here by both Mr. V nor the partisan hack job he posted. There's a reason that overly partisan sources are not allowed as breaking news: they tend to be highly inaccurate and highly dishonest.
 
Oh it's not. There is a place for liberal op-ed just like there should be a place for conservative commentary. But let us not also pretend that democrats have some golden key to responsible journalism. Shall we bring up how it was that an American paper could have had a strong case made against it for releasing vital information during a time of war, placing our own men and women at risk? I don't think you want to go there.

What on God's Green Earth are you talking about? How the hell does that address anything you quoted? :shock: How does that address the issue of tax code as dependent for growth? Can anyone read here?

WashTimes is on pretty solid footing as far as I know. In any case allow me to tell you why it is that I speak with just a little bit of authority on the issue. While I may be a truck driver, I have been lucky enough to be married to a wonderful woman for the past 22 years, whom has worked for news papers owned by TimesMirror, and Tribune. The Tribune has had problems because it sold to a man that had NO News Paper experience and put in place another man that had NO experience. It has NOTHING to do with my political leaning, other than to say I am against OP ED JOURNALISM.

Okay...and this addresses my argument how? Simple fact is that newspapers pandering to all sorts of biases across the country are failing for largely the same reason:they give away their product for free.

I don't think that is any more true than anything else thrown out there with not a single shred of evidence to back it up.

Your posts would be better if you took the time to educate yourself:
Liberal bias isn't killing newspapers - The Boston Globe
Loaded Orygun:: The Dying GOP: Oregon Conservative Magazine Closes

Timeline of newspaper edition shutdowns | The shutdown list
Hardly a list of liberal bent papers.


Heard of something called the Rocky Mountain News? Guess how that firm is doing?

Now that much is true. People are getting more from the net, however, Papers are correcting their mistake to give away content for free, and hopefully they will survive. I don't think it is a matter of Government bailing them out though, I think it should be a matter of getting back to basics.

Indeed. The real problem is distribution. I posted a link showing page views and unique visitors to several liberal bent papers that were truly enormous. The product is not the problem. It's the free part.

No, left leaning because they are left leaning. Period. They already distort, we don't need them beholden to Obama to get more favorable coverage do we?

Perhaps you need to reread the question.

No, I am trying to be civil here, you should try it. Take GM for example and you tell me who runs the show now?

Hint: It ain't a free market guy.

Hello? Do you know what additional tax benefits are?

that is because when conservatives change the tax law it is usually downward, letting me keep more of my hard earned money. When Liberals change them it is to take more of my money and give it away to non deserving leaches

j-mac

Look! Another person who clearly did not read the article, nor the thread.

Please reread before posting again.
 
Note the failures in this argument.

1) No addressing how the actual speech lines up with the accusations made by Mr. V
2) No addressing how the partisan article provided by Mr. V is exceptionally dishonest in characterizing what the speech was actually about
3) No addressinghow the number of options actually stated in his speech are no different then business as usual
4) No acknowledgment that similar actions for money losing farms was enacted under Bush
5) No evidence for his claim that my arguments are inline with Waxman's beliefs
6) No evidence that Waxman seeks subsidizing media as government outlets

I can keep going. Mr. V has presented absolutely nothing other his how his "feelings" are true.

And no, his speech does not state such goals and does not state that the product being sold is unwanted.

Again, more evidence for my initial claim that someone did not read the article.


So you are contending it's not product but the markets fault that newspapers are failing, and only government intervention will fix it. Got it.
 
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